Is Ravichandran Ashwin an ATG test bowler?

[capt_Luffy]

The reason I go hard is from my perspective you are trying to fix a title on him reserved for Warne/Murali level elites with his existing SENA record.

The title which encompasses both McGrath and Lillee.... I ask you if those two can share the title even after Lillee's record against most of the top teams, almost exclusively playing at home; can't see why Warne and Ashwin can't really.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Good is not average. You yourself made that distinction when referring to home record of WI vs Pakistan just now. So please be consistent.

Include both, and it's barely above average. And I am not sure even being good is good enough to be an ATG when you play exclusively at home and only dominate one non minnow team.

 

[subshakerz]

The title which encompasses both McGrath and Lillee.... I ask you if those two can share the title even after Lillee's record against most of the top teams, almost exclusively playing at home; can't see why Warne and Ashwin can't really.

It's all been explained to you so no need for special pleading for Ashwin.

 

[capt_Luffy]

It's all been explained to you so no need for special pleading for Ashwin.

Yeah, only Lillee deserves that.

 

[subshakerz]

Include both, and it's barely above average. And I am not sure even being good is good enough to be an ATG when you play exclusively at home and only dominate one non minnow team.

Being good is minimum standard for ATG to not consider it a blemish. Lillee with 55 wickets @25 in 11 tests at home against the greatest side in history is well above what he needs to prove himself.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

The reason I go hard is from my perspective you are trying to fix a title on him reserved for Warne/Murali level elites with his existing less than desierable SENA record.

I don’t have a problem with you not rating Ashwin as an ATG if the only the ATG spinners for you are Warne, Murali and O’Reilly. Cause they are in a different league

 

[capt_Luffy]

Being good is minimum standard for ATG to not consider it a blemish. Lillee with 55 wickets @25 in 11 tests at home against the greatest side in history is well above what he needs to prove himself.

Considering the pitch conditions in series like 1976, I beg to differ that he is better than Ashwin at home. Especially, I don't think his record against Pakistan is really any better than Ashwin in England or much than Australia.

 

[Victor Ian]

As wrong by today's standards as it is, no one gave a **** about the subcontinent, except the sub continent before the 90s. While Lillee is unproven there he is proven in WSC which was effectively a higher standard when it ran.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I don’t have a problem with you not rating Ashwin as an ATG if the only the ATG spinners for you are Warne, Murali and O’Reilly. Cause they are in a different league

I admit they're. But so are Lillee and McGrath. And he considered Laker an ATG right when this thread began.

 

[subshakerz]

As wrong by today's standards as it is, no one gave a **** about the subcontinent, except the sub continent before the 90s. While Lillee is unproven there he is proven in WSC which was effectively a higher standard when it ran.

This is kinda untrue. His own bowling mate Thommo said Marshall was the best since he was able to get wickets there when Lillee wasn't able to.

 

[ma1978]

Please check the exchange we had earlier on this and let me know if there are any follow up questions on that.

I did - your standards are terrible

 

[subshakerz]

List of players in this thread that have been unfairly downgraded by the usual posters to make Ashwin look better:

Laker (journeyman away from home)
O'Reilly (total product of spiced up pitches)
Lyon (can't bowl at home when Ashwin tours)
Warne and Murali (failed in India, ergo failed in SC)
Smith (owned so bad by Ashwin he should have retired)
Lillee (ATG? Really?)

 

[capt_Luffy]

List of players in this thread that have been unfairly downgraded by the usual posters to make Ashwin look better:

Laker (journeyman away from home)
O'Reilly (total product of spiced up pitches)
Lyon (can't bowl at home when Ashwin tours)
Warne and Murali (failed in India, ergo failed in SC)
Smith (owned so bad by Ashwin he should have retired)
Lillee (ATG? Really?)

You should add Anderson on this list of unfairly downgraded by usual posters to ma..... Ohhh.... Wait.....

 

[subshakerz]

You should add Anderson on this list of unfairly downgraded by usual posters to ma..... Ohhh.... Wait.....

Anderson is the exception that proves the rule.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Anderson is the exception that proves the rule.

That you will only use points and players benefitting you.... I still didn't get how placing Laker as an ATG is Okay, but Ashwin is unthinkable.

 

[subshakerz]

That you will only use points and players benefitting you.... I still didn't get how placing Laker as an ATG is Okay, but Ashwin is unthinkable.

I didn't put Laker as an ATG yet.

 

[Xix2565]

Most if they can't tolerate someone would just ignore that poster rather than pollute a thread with their negativity.

I asked you questions about the topic, and you didn't answer properly. I tried to engage with you and you basically ****ed off. Come on, don't be ridiculous.

 

[kyear2]

I believe you are ignoring that Lillee was just above average against anyone but England. That's not consistency, but one eyedness

I can't speak for Subz, but Lillee for me is that last category because he doesn't have the complete record of some of the others, but a lot of that was because he was injured.
He wasn't intentionally left out of matches and primarily failed when he wasn't. But that aside and the factor that pushed over the line, WSC...

Like Chappell that seals it for me, additionally also the rest of the world matches that were tests at the time. He had epic performances against the best in the world where everyone else disappeared. Lillee, I. V. A., Chappell and to a lesser extent Barry cemented their greatness in possibly the most intense cricket in history. You don't have to agree, but that matters for me.

 

[kyear2]

Tier 1:
Marshall/McGrath/Hadlee/Barnes

Tier 2: Steyn/Ambrose/Wasim/Imran/Lillee/Trueman/Donald/ Holding/Garner/Lindwall/Davidson

Tier 3:
Waqar/Walsh/Cummins/Pollock/Roberts/Anderson/ Procter

May I ask your criteria or is it based on the eye test or feel?

 

[Xix2565]

List of players in this thread that have been unfairly downgraded by the usual posters to make Ashwin look better:

Laker (journeyman away from home)
O'Reilly (total product of spiced up pitches)
Lyon (can't bowl at home when Ashwin tours)
Warne and Murali (failed in India, ergo failed in SC)
Smith (owned so bad by Ashwin he should have retired)
Lillee (ATG? Really?)

None of this has been said to downgrade players but go on a tangent as usual buddy. When you can't impose on others, just lie through your teeth. Classical behaviour, imagine actually standing up for this @kyear2.