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Ashwin - The ATG Spinner

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Xix2565

International Regular
ataraxia said:
You raised the point you imbecile. You said the only way the statistic you posted wasn't an absolutely accurate representation of the degree to which pitch doctoring against SC teams is prevalent in NZ would be groundsmen's inability. I answer the implied question by pointing out a groundsman for whom the template does not apply. Now it's apparently utterly irrelevant and it doesn't explain why the statistic isn't entirely true. Cool.
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The Bay Oval pitches overall do not have much of an influence on the numbers either way though? Without the Bay Oval the SENA numbers go to 101 wickets in 14 games at 29.24/58.8, and the Asian numbers to 56 wickets in 16 games at 58.83/95.5. It's a dumb ****ing tangent because it doesn't matter as far as the record goes if the groundsman at the Bay Oval is basically running through the motions or letting a cow **** in the field.
 
ataraxia

ataraxia

International Coach
Xix2565 said:
The Bay Oval pitches overall do not have much of an influence on the numbers either way though? Without the Bay Oval the SENA numbers go to 101 wickets in 14 games at 29.24/58.8, and the Asian numbers to 56 wickets in 16 games at 58.83/95.5. It's a dumb ****ing tangent because it doesn't matter as far as the record goes if the groundsman at the Bay Oval is basically running through the motions or letting a cow **** in the field.
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It's about whether the numbers are an accurate representation of reality and whether that reality is fully explainable by pitch doctoring, not how the numbers themselves behave. In fact, the small degree to which the Bay Oval tests affect the numbers despite reality being different is itself something that skews the numbers.

In other words, it's about whether you truly believe that NZ tries to roll out 30 average pitches for SENA spinners and 55 average pitches for SC spinners when there is zero evidence for that on the one of four pitches that is perhaps the least weather-dependent, theoretically allowing the groundsman and NZC maximum control. Either (1) they're not trying to doctor the Bay Oval pitch to any tangible degree or (2) they are trying but it hasn't been working, which doesn't look particularly good for your hypothesis of "groundsmen have near-absolute control over pitch conditions".
 
OverratedSanity

OverratedSanity

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What exactly is the actual reason for that statistical discrepancy ftr? I dont think you guys have managed to explain that well. Beyond the conspiracy theories about pitch doctoring (which I dont care for, imo pitch doctoring is based), I found that to be compelling evidence that asian teams have been served up different pitches. It's not that big of a deal tbh, it's happened to SC teams in other countries over the years too. Particularly in SA imo where since the mid 90s, Aus would get conspicuously slow decks when they toured , presumably to try and neuter McGrath, but then Ind/SL would play and their random trundlers would suddenly get it to leap and move around all over the place.
 
X

Xix2565

International Regular
ataraxia said:
It's about whether the numbers are an accurate representation of reality and whether that reality is fully explainable by pitch doctoring, not how the numbers themselves behave. In fact, the small degree to which the Bay Oval tests affect the numbers despite reality being different is itself something that skews the numbers.

In other words, it's about whether you truly believe that NZ tries to roll out 30 average pitches for SENA spinners and 55 average pitches for SC spinners when there is zero evidence for that on the one of four pitches that is perhaps the least weather-dependent, theoretically allowing the groundsman and NZC maximum control. Either (1) they're not trying to doctor the Bay Oval pitch to any tangible degree or (2) they are trying but it hasn't been working, which doesn't look particularly good for your hypothesis of "groundsmen have near-absolute control over pitch conditions".
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I mean pitches don't appear out of nothing. People preparing them do tend to have a decent amount of understanding of how conditions and the way they prepare the ground can play out on field. Doesn't need to be a perfect control because the weather is beyond control, but even then they know what can happen if it's too wet/dry/etc.

This doesn't have to be some high level conspiracy from NZC management and so on, but it can't really be written off as a quirk of NZ playing conditions whenever the Tests are played. I'm not sure why GP and part time spinners should look like gods in such conditions if what you believe is true.
 
Flem274*

Flem274*

123/5
India in the past 10 years have played twice at the Basin, once at eden Park and once at hagley. That's like the holy trifecta of gg spin.

Other teams get the mount and Hamilton. The only outlier tests I've seen at the non spin grounds are Maharaj on a used hagley deck and lyon on anything.

Brand got a few but that was more due to no one else helping.
 
X

Xix2565

International Regular
South Africa and Australia average 16 and 17 with spin at Basin Reserve/Eden Park/Hagley Oval. NZ groundsmen must hate their team then tbh, if they like to let SA and AUS spin you lot out.
 
TheJediBrah

TheJediBrah

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OverratedSanity said:
What exactly is the actual reason for that statistical discrepancy ftr? I dont think you guys have managed to explain that well. Beyond the conspiracy theories about pitch doctoring (which I dont care for, imo pitch doctoring is based), I found that to be compelling evidence that asian teams have been served up different pitches. It's not that big of a deal tbh, it's happened to SC teams in other countries over the years too. Particularly in SA imo where since the mid 90s, Aus would get conspicuously slow decks when they toured , presumably to try and neuter McGrath, but then Ind/SL would play and their random trundlers would suddenly get it to leap and move around all over the place.
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SA have always been unashamed cheats though

When their captain gets caught ball tampering they give him a raise
 
Line and Length

Line and Length

Cricketer Of The Year
Without reading all the discussion and debate I'll simply react to the thread's title.

Ashwin - The ATG Spinner

Firstly "The" implies number one and that title is only a debate between Warne and Murali with old-timers like O'Reilly thrown into the mix.
The title should be "Ashwin - An ATG Spinner" and then the merit of "ATG" could be discussed.

Looking at his worthiness to an ATG tag is interesting. How many spinners warrant such a tag?
I've already mentioned three and I would suggest that Grimmett, Laker and Verity might also be contenders.

On the next tier (ATVG) I would have Tayfield, Kumble, Underwood, Gibbs,and Benaud along with names like Herath, Chandrasekhar, Bedi, Mushtaq and Swann. Current players in Ashwin, Lyon and Jadeja would fit in that group and only time, and a complete career, would warrant discussion of a ATG ranking.
 
Flem274*

Flem274*

123/5
Xix2565 said:
South Africa and Australia average 16 and 17 with spin at Basin Reserve/Eden Park/Hagley Oval. NZ groundsmen must hate their team then tbh, if they like to let SA and AUS spin you lot out.
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If you watched cricket instead of statsguru then you might understand what's happening, but you're not very bright or worth talking to based on your posting here, so I think I'll leave it to you to enjoy the journey.
 
X

Xix2565

International Regular
Flem274* said:
If you watched cricket instead of statsguru then you might understand what's happening, but you're not very bright or worth talking to based on your posting here, so I think I'll leave it to you to enjoy the journey.
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So easy to avoid having to think about what is happening when you can just go "Watch the game". Shameless, as expected of fans of a team that enjoys having SPs in their XIs.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Line and Length said:
On the next tier (ATVG) I would have Tayfield, Kumble, Underwood, Gibbs,and Benaud along with names like Herath, Chandrasekhar, Bedi, Mushtaq and Swann. Current players in Ashwin, Lyon and Jadeja would fit in that group and only time, and a complete career, would warrant discussion of a ATG ranking.
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Pretty much this. The idea that certain posters who are insisting Ashwin belongs in a trinity with Warne and Murali is nuts IMO.

Of course, we could also be having a difference in what constitutes an ATG since my definition of ATG is more exclusive than theirs anyways.
 
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subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Xix2565 said:
I mean pitches don't appear out of nothing. People preparing them do tend to have a decent amount of understanding of how conditions and the way they prepare the ground can play out on field. Doesn't need to be a perfect control because the weather is beyond control, but even then they know what can happen if it's too wet/dry/etc.

This doesn't have to be some high level conspiracy from NZC management and so on, but it can't really be written off as a quirk of NZ playing conditions whenever the Tests are played. I'm not sure why GP and part time spinners should look like gods in such conditions if what you believe is true.
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Ashwin has played a grand total of 1 test in NZ so bringing up that country as an example of pitch doctoring affecting him seems odd.
 
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