Steve Smith vs Ricky Ponting

[capt_Luffy]

Series like that really are why the assertion that the 2000s were somehow this era of anything but complete roads in Australia makes me laugh.

Now if you want to say that elevates Warne and McGrath to near demigod status for what they achieved on those decks then I'm all ears. But Australian batsmen unquestionably had it easy in those days.

I think it's also somewhat similar to how in present day India pacers as good as Cummins, Rabada and Boult fails; but Umesh Yadav has excellent record. But still, McGrath and Warne are ATGs, I don't think too many people differ there.

 

[ma1978]

You aren't even pretending to bring up actual substantive reasons to support your argument any more.

I don’t think I need to make any more substantive argument - it’s pretty much an obvious to any observer of cricket that Ponting and Smith are in the same league and any ranking can only come down to personal preference. It’s only a small group of people who parse statistics here in a deeplyunsound way who think otherwise.

 

[Spark]

I think it's also somewhat similar to how in present day India pacers as good as Cummins, Rabada and Boult fails; but Umesh Yadav has excellent record. But still, McGrath and Warne are ATGs, I don't think too many people differ there.

Tbf I really think we need to put an asterisk against those two games that happened last year as far as they apply to Cummins; it's pretty obvious that he could barely have cared less about anything to do with cricket at that time beyond the bare professional minimum.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Ponting, and it isn’t all that close for anyone who has actually seen them both bat.

it’s pretty much an obvious to any observer of cricket that Ponting and Smith are in the same league and any ranking can only come down to personal preference.

 

[Socerer 01]

which?

which ones?

2019 Trans-Tasman series for Australia
2019 India tour of NZ for NZ
2018 Aus tour of SA for SA
2018 India tour of Aus or SA for India
England’s 2011 attack as already shown but their 2018 attack against India at home was also a perfect storm as was 2019 against South Africa

sure you may say that bowling is easier in this era due to better pitches but since you unironically believe Smith has it easier than Ponting for batting pitches you dont really get to use that card

 

[ma1978]

2019 Trans-Tasman series for Australia
2019 India tour of NZ for NZ
2018 Aus tour of SA for SA
2018 India tour of Aus or SA for India
England’s 2011 attack as already shown but their 2018 attack against India at home was also a perfect storm as was 2019 against South Africa

sure you may say that bowling is easier in this era due to better pitches but since you unironically believe Smith has it easier than Ponting for batting pitches you dont really get to use that card

nah

 

[ma1978]

Tbf I really think we need to put an asterisk against those two games that happened last year as far as they apply to Cummins; it's pretty obvious that he could barely have cared less about anything to do with cricket at that time beyond the bare professional minimum.

I don’t disagree but that’s also why you don’t cherry pick stats

 

[Socerer 01]

I don’t think I need to make any more substantive argument - it’s pretty much an obvious to any observer of cricket that Ponting and Smith are in the same league and any ranking can only come down to personal preference. It’s only a small group of people who parse statistics here in a deeplyunsound way who think otherwise.

almost every observer of cricket here other than you and centurymaker think Smith is a league or half a league above Ponting deservedly but you keep dismissing them as statsnerds or gurus who didnt watch them play even when they did

 

[Socerer 01]

nah

real solid argument there buddy

 

[Spark]

I don’t disagree but that’s also why you don’t cherry pick stats

The only time I've brought up a stat is to point out that the idea that batting was easier in the 2010s overall - including the late 2010s - than it was in the 2000s is nakedly false

 

[capt_Luffy]

Tbf I really think we need to put an asterisk against those two games that happened last year as far as they apply to Cummins; it's pretty obvious that he could barely have cared less about anything to do with cricket at that time beyond the bare professional minimum.

I don't disagree on that; but in the last 10 years; among pacers who atleast have played 3 matches; only Morne Morkel (who played exactly 3) has a sub 30 bowling average; all the while 6 Indian pacers, even the likes of Bhubaneswar Kumar and Ishant Sharma do so.

 

[Socerer 01]

I don't disagree on that; but in the last 10 years; among pacers who atleast have played 3 matches; only Morne Morkel (who played exactly 3) has a sub 30 bowling average; all the while 6 Indian pacers, even the likes of Bhubaneswar Kumar and Ishant Sharma do so.

Morkel was genuinely awesome in 2015 as was Abbott

 

[Spark]

IIRC in 2017 Cummins looked excellent on his comeback to Tests in India, I don't remember how many wickets he got but he certainly looked threatening.

 

[ma1978]

almost every observer of cricket here other than you and centurymaker think Smith is a league or half a league above Ponting deservedly but you keep dismissing them as statsnerds or gurus who didnt watch them play even when they did

yes I think the whole notion that there is a league of difference between Tendulkar, Lara, Smith Ponting, Dravid, Kallis, Sanga, Waugh, etc is a bit ridiculous. Tendulkar argauably gets some credit for how long he did it but apart from that, it’s all personal preference. So yes, I was reacting to the parsing of minute data in an unsound way to make a point. At some point there will be better analytic tools but today there aren’t.

And yes my personal preference for aesthetic reasons is Ponting, and I def feared him more as an opposing bat than Smith but that’s partly brcause for the past several years India has Australia’s number.

 

[kyear2]

I don’t think I need to make any more substantive argument - it’s pretty much an obvious to any observer of cricket that Ponting and Smith are in the same league and any ranking can only come down to personal preference. It’s only a small group of people who parse statistics here in a deeplyunsound way who think otherwise.

I respected Punter as much as anyone. But for me Smith is 6th and among the Gods. Ponting I have between 9th and 12th (I find it hard to order him, Gavaskar, Chappell and Hammond) and among the slightly lesser mortals.

So while not miles apart, I do have them in different tiers.

 

[ma1978]

I respected Punter as much as anyone. But for me Smith is 6th and among the Gods. Ponting I have between 9th and 12th (I find it hard to order him, Gavaskar, Chappell and Hammond) and among the slightly lesser mortals.

So while not miles apart, I do have them in different tiers.

this is a precision I find problematic and thus my reaction

 

[Kenneth Viljoen]

Two legends but I'll go for Smith due to his superior record in the Ashes, which is what the Aussies and the Poms care about the most.

 

[centurymaker]

At this stage of Smith's career (age 34 and 109 Tests) there isn't a lot between Ponting and Smith.

In fact if you were all to forget what Ponting did in his last 4 years and you'd all be rating Ponting a lot higher than you are right now. In fact Ponting was seen as better than Tendulkar and Lara for a wee while. If not for the late career drop off in average, you all would be having him right next to them.

So I am eagering awating to see how you all react when similar happens with Smith. Well it's already happening. However I see Smith retiring early at the end of next year after Ashes aged 36, so his average won't fall to 51/52 like Ponting but it will be 54ish. If he somehow decides to play till 38, it will be down to 51/52.

In 15 months (2 seasons), Smith's avg has fallen by 4.5 points. It doesn't take long to come down. So definitely if he plays another 3+ years, it will be similar to Ponting in all probability.

And then opinions change dramatically. Ponting was a complete flat track bully, never close to Tendulkar etc. On one hand people say late career stuff doesn't matter and then you see opinions change like that..

 

[Burgey]

Centurymaker with some decent points here.

Ponting is definitely a fella whose legacy is hurt by his last few years, but by the same token he also benefitted from peaking in an era where decks were mostly pretty flat, so it arguably balances itself out. Great player though, comfortably Australia’s best number three since Bradman.

I thought at the time he retired that in a decade or so people would look at his numbers and be a bit ho him on him, and it has happened to an extent. He was a great player though.

I’m also a big believer in great players adapting, so I don’t think if Ponting peaked in the 90s or the late 2010s he’d necessarily average less. Same with all the top tier players. They find a way. It’s what makes them great.

 

[centurymaker]

Ponting had about 6 great years
1999, 2000, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006

Smith's similar
2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2019

Since the pitches became better, his numbers have fallen off. And since the 2019 Ashes, Smith is averaging 43 in the last 5 years...46 at home and 38 away.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

So I see less reason to rank him above Ponting let alone a tier above. At best he is on par but he has played significantly less than Ponting, 60 less Tests at the moment. The more he plays and more representative his figures will become.

By 2026/2027, we might look back at Smith's last 7-8 years of his career and might say that he's struggled and averaging only 39 since 2019 Ashes. It will change our perception of him somewhat, similar to what most did here with regards to Ponting.

By 2009/10 people were still thinking Ponting was doing well (just not converting his numerous 50s 60s 70s) but opinions changed around 2011. And his rating has only gone down each year since then. In 2024 he is now a flat track bully who hardly faced good bowlers even though he started off against all the ATG bowlers that Tendulkar played.