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Ryan Harris vs Tim Southee

Who is the better test bowler?

  • Total voters
    26
Athlai

Athlai

Not Terrible
Nah. Southee's best 5 years were not that far off Harris' whole career, and Southee actually had a career outside that too.

Reliability and longevity do matter (they aren't everything) and Harris shouldn't coast on only playing during a time when he was gun. Otherwise we'd also see Bond and Akhtar win all these sorts of comparison's too. There's an argument in comparing peaks, but comparing players.

It's Southee.
 
Flem274*

Flem274*

123/5
Athlai said:
Nah. Southee's best 5 years were not that far off Harris' whole career, and Southee actually had a career outside that too.

Reliability and longevity do matter (they aren't everything) and Harris shouldn't coast on only playing during a time when he was gun. Otherwise we'd also see Bond and Akhtar win all these sorts of comparison's too. There's an argument in comparing peaks, but comparing players.

It's Southee.
Click to expand...
If you have a 3 test series tomorrow, very few pick Southee. The Australian, Pakistan and New Zealand selectors have shown us who they pick. Australia had pace bowling depth during Harris' career too, but he was the best.

2012-2014 Southee was a serious bowler, probably top 3, but outside that you'd be insane to pick him over Harris.
 
Athlai

Athlai

Not Terrible
If you pick a 3 test series tomorrow you don't choose the guy who is a decade ****ing retired
 
Howsie

Howsie

International Captain
Athlai said:
Nah. Southee's best 5 years were not that far off Harris' whole career, and Southee actually had a career outside that too.

Reliability and longevity do matter (they aren't everything) and Harris shouldn't coast on only playing during a time when he was gun. Otherwise we'd also see Bond and Akhtar win all these sorts of comparison's too. There's an argument in comparing peaks, but comparing players.

It's Southee.
Click to expand...
This. Southee in his prime run had two runs at it as good as Ryan Harri’s whole career

Also dominated in the SC, Harris do much of that?
 
Flem274*

Flem274*

123/5
PlayerComparisons said:
If we’re just picking players at their best, then Shoaib Akhtar > Glenn McGrath and AB de Villiers > Rahul Dravid
Click to expand...
This is pretty disingenuous.

When their careers coincided, a period stretching roughly from 2009 to 2016, Ryan Harris was always regarded as the better test bowler.

The longevity argument has some merit, if you prefer good for 10 years over great for 5 (I take great for 5, becausea bowler on an absolute tear can take a team on that journey), but in Southee's specific case it isn't as clear as it might initially look if you go that way because a lot of Southee's longevity was useless to the team.

From 2008 - 2011 Southee was good enough to make the team but not good enough to contribute to it outside the rare performance. I can understand the longevity argument Athlai and PEWS make even if I don't agree, but I will die on the hill that existing in a team rather than actively contributing to it has no place in pro-longevity arguments. I have watched both careers, and Southee has done plenty of existing.

I don't have the numbers on hand, but the number of years Southee averaged under 35 in test cricket would be a lot closer to Harris's number than you would think for a 15 year career. That average being under 30, even closer.
 
Flem274*

Flem274*

123/5
OverratedSanity said:
Harris had a decade of less than useless longevity too. It just came outside of test cricket.
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I don't think it matters. Existing in a test team doesn't make someone good. They can even be a Marcus Harris on the fortunes of the side. I don't give longevity credit for guys who don't contribute, to either Harris or Southee.
 
Athlai

Athlai

Not Terrible
Flem274* said:
This is pretty disingenuous.

When their careers coincided, a period stretching roughly from 2009 to 2016, Ryan Harris was always regarded as the better test bowler.

The longevity argument has some merit, if you prefer good for 10 years over great for 5 (I take great for 5, becausea bowler on an absolute tear can take a team on that journey), but in Southee's specific case it isn't as clear as it might initially look if you go that way because a lot of Southee's longevity was useless to the team.

From 2008 - 2011 Southee was good enough to make the team but not good enough to contribute to it outside the rare performance. I can understand the longevity argument Athlai and PEWS make even if I don't agree, but I will die on the hill that existing in a team rather than actively contributing to it has no place in pro-longevity arguments. I have watched both careers, and Southee has done plenty of existing.

I don't have the numbers on hand, but the number of years Southee averaged under 35 in test cricket would be a lot closer to Harris's number than you would think for a 15 year career. That average being under 30, even closer.
Click to expand...
Learn statsguru ffs

Calendar years averaging under 25
Southee 5
Harris 4

Calendar year's averaging under 30
Southee 8
Harris 4
 
Flem274*

Flem274*

123/5
Athlai said:
Learn statsguru ffs

Calendar years averaging under 25
Southee 5
Harris 4

Calendar year's averaging under 30
Southee 8
Harris 4
Click to expand...
Yeah we covered this. At no point when their careers coincided was Southee considered better than Harris. We can go dig some posts from 2014 if you want.

There is no point rating cricketers on things that don't matter when they're active i.e. a 10 year good career vs a 5 year great one. It's all about who is more likely to win you a test.
 
Athlai

Athlai

Not Terrible
Reckon in 2012 Southee was probably considered better. I mean obv not in Australian conditions but ffs blokes like Southee who aren't quick and get prodigious new ball swing are ****ing so underrated.
 
Flem274*

Flem274*

123/5
Athlai said:
Reckon in 2012 Southee was probably considered better. I mean obv not in Australian conditions but ffs blokes like Southee who aren't quick and get prodigious new ball swing are ****ing so underrated.
Click to expand...
Nah he wasn't, I remember there was a thread on it. Howsie got comprehensively shouted down. :laugh:

Agreed on the latter. 2012-2014 Southee was on his way to being the generational swing bowler with a sharp bumper (him bouncing out Sanga in SL is one of my favourite balls). After his back injury between the WC and our next tour he was never quite the same.
 
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