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*Official* Australia tour of New Zealand Feb-Mar 2024

Spark

Global Moderator
Has been averaging 21 since stumping gate. I get that he's had the odd decent innings since then but that just plain doesn't cut it for #7.
It's also been the way he's gotten out too. I would hazard at a guess that 80% of his dismissals have been (1) bowled through a huge gate from a quick bowling around the wicket (2) a really ****ing stupid shot, usually falling into the most obvious trap in the world. Those aren't good modes of dismissal to be known for.
 

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
If you have insider knowledge of what support Jesse Ryder got beyond what we all know from media reports, then please share it. Because what I saw was a poor kid with alcohol problems and a parasitic entourage who got half-arsed "support" from the system when it was already far too late.

Personally I can't help but contrast that with the leash that the likes of Chris Cairns got over the years, but then perhaps he was just lucky to be born cricket royalty in an era before ubiquitous cameras and social media.
Yep, I've got a fair idea. No doubt Jesse had some issues to overcome, he grew up in a rough house, slept on the floor in the garage, was around drinking consistently, started himself early, it was written in the stars that he would grow up an alcoholic. So you feel like he had a lot to overcome through no fault of his own.

And yeah, his mates were parasites. Scum. They showed no interest in helping him get better and fulfill his promise, but Jesse wasn't smart enough to drop them, either. As for half-arsed support, Jesse got as much as NZC could give him without attaching themselves to him 24-7. He had a psychologist, Karen Nimmo. Minders regularly followed him out, as early as his NZ Academy days. They overlooked a whole barrage of incidents no one heard of, for a long time. They tried, and tried, as much as anyone who isn't an AA leader and aren't trained to help alcoholics (these are cricket staff, remember) could have. Ross Taylor did his best, but lost faith. Brendon saw the good in him but knew the culture couldn't sustain it. Mike Hesson tried, everyone did. Anyone who thinks Jesse Ryder was dudded, I feel like you'd want to appreciate how much was done for him before it all became too much to deal with, and the needs of the team ultimately won.
 

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I was more referring to the implied policy of the time that Jesse was being ejected due to some kind of no dickheads style policy. He wasn’t fighting enough for the team etc etc. It would be hard to justify such a policy when you’re willing to select the SP.
 

morgieb

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Wasn't the India tour before the Bairstow incident too? He's been shocking for a while now.
Yeah, it was.

In fairness he did manage two 60 odd's after the India tour, so it looked like it was a one-off. But since then it's been a complete mess.
 

quincywagstaff

International Debutant
The Windies team that beat Australia at the Gabba recently showed that passion and application & some individual brilliance can see a team that aren’t up to much on paper beat a superior team.
Thinking back to that match, just underlines how pivotal that Green wicket on the final day was. He looked totally solid until his somewhat unlucky dismissal and then the rest of the batting looked totally vulnerable.

With this batting lineup, Green looks like the most important batsman now; he can be the glue that holds a stodgy opening trio and a flashy but vulnerable middle order together.
 

Daemon

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Pat Cummins is all I wish we had as a leader. He's a magnificent person - whether you believe in his off field message or whatever else, he's the epitome of a captain.
I love Pat Cummins. Us boring nerds in the backroom would love an hour with him to talk the things he cares about, and give him the hard stats so he can let loose.

He's an amazing figure for communicating the reality of the world we live in, which is becoming increasingly difficult in an era where people are willing to sacrifice everything they have to own the nerds.
C ucked
 

East Bay Ray

Cricket Spectator
Has been averaging 21 since stumping gate. I get that he's had the odd decent innings since then but that just plain doesn't cut it for #7.
What/who are you comparing that to ? What do you think your wicketkeepe Number 7 should average with the bat ?
Most of the English top and middle order averages similar or not much more. That includes guys we call "greats" like Stokes.
Even with a recent run of low scores, Carey is still averaging 30.
It is far too easy to forget he is in the team for his glove work. That must always be the number 1 priority in red ball cricket. A "great" average for a wicektkeeper is maybe 35. A very good average is 30. ...all of which can be made completely irrelevant if he makes just one mistake with the gloves over 5 days.
150 years of cricket has taught us one thing....pick your best bat, best bowler and best gloveman.....then the rest. If a gloveman comes along that is also a great batsmen that is pure bonus, but if his glove work is ordinary you will still lose more than you win.

White ball cricket is a differnt matter.
 

morgieb

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he can be the glue that holds a stodgy opening trio and a flashy but vulnerable middle order together.
I remember bagging the selection when people bought it up after that India tour, but I wonder if Australia should try and move Head to open, Smith to 4 and Green to 5. Certainly as things stand the top order seems too defensive and the middle order are the sort of guys that either get bowled out for 10 or make a crucial aggressive innings.
 

jcas0167

International Debutant
The meteorologists also had a disappointing performance. Showers were forecast for this afternoon and it's brilliantly fine.
 

East Bay Ray

Cricket Spectator
I'd expect an average of 30+. Carey was definitely delivering that for a while but in recent times he hasn't.
Agree he's out of form with the bat, but he's not alone there. Could almost say that about the entire top and middle order right now.
It gets a bit rough though when you start dropping your 1st choice w/keeper on the basis of his recent batting form. Yes it becomes a bit of an issue, but if his glove work is 1st class that is winning you matches without you noticing it. Their work is always taken for granted....they are simply expected to be "excellent" with the gloves.
Plenty of recent examples of nations trying to play an extra bat or bowler by skimping on the glovework and it costing not just matches, but entire series. See Bairstow in the recent Ashes.
All i;m saying is to me the gloves in test matches are a non negotiable.....i'll happily ride the ups and downs in batting form for a 30-35 average at 7, but if his glovework drops off you will find they drop him fast, and then it is fair enough.
Its one of the biggest differences between red and white ball cricket for me. I think they have it right at the moment with Carey in tests and Inglis in white ball.
Bit of a ramble, sorry.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
The idea that any amount of good glove work justifies non-existent contributions with the bat, especially in a side with a brittle lower-middle order that needs all the batting it can get, should have died years ago.
 

Dick Rockett

International Vice-Captain
Yep, I've got a fair idea. No doubt Jesse had some issues to overcome, he grew up in a rough house, slept on the floor in the garage, was around drinking consistently, started himself early, it was written in the stars that he would grow up an alcoholic. So you feel like he had a lot to overcome through no fault of his own.

And yeah, his mates were parasites. Scum. They showed no interest in helping him get better and fulfill his promise, but Jesse wasn't smart enough to drop them, either. As for half-arsed support, Jesse got as much as NZC could give him without attaching themselves to him 24-7. He had a psychologist, Karen Nimmo. Minders regularly followed him out, as early as his NZ Academy days. They overlooked a whole barrage of incidents no one heard of, for a long time. They tried, and tried, as much as anyone who isn't an AA leader and aren't trained to help alcoholics (these are cricket staff, remember) could have. Ross Taylor did his best, but lost faith. Brendon saw the good in him but knew the culture couldn't sustain it. Mike Hesson tried, everyone did. Anyone who thinks Jesse Ryder was dudded, I feel like you'd want to appreciate how much was done for him before it all became too much to deal with, and the needs of the team ultimately won.
I suppose it comes down to your own personal outlook as to whether you feel Jesse Ryder was 'dudded' or not. Perhaps my own background and politics prevent me from seeing this as clearly as you do, which is why I'm just banging on in an obscure forum and no one with any clout cares what I think.

Scott Kuggeleijn went on trial for rape, twice. He needn't have been convicted for his actions to be considered vile.

I am disgusted and embarrassed every time that man is selected to represent this country. NZC should be ashamed of themselves for doing so, and for their limp excuses in justifying it.

So yeah, I've got a bee in my bonnet about this. Jesse Ryder could've pissed all over the table during an NZC board meeting and I'd still think he was shafted in comparison.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
I suppose it comes down to your own personal outlook as to whether you feel Jesse Ryder was 'dudded' or not. Perhaps my own background and politics prevent me from seeing this as clearly as you do, which is why I'm just banging on in an obscure forum and no one with any clout cares what I think.

Scott Kuggeleijn went on trial for rape, twice. He needn't have been convicted for his actions to be considered vile.

I am disgusted and embarrassed every time that man is selected to represent this country. NZC should be ashamed of themselves for doing so, and for their limp excuses in justifying it.

So yeah, I've got a bee in my bonnet about this. Jesse Ryder could've pissed all over the table during an NZC board meeting and I'd still think he was shafted in comparison.
What Kuggeleijn did was so heinous by his own admission that it kind of obviates the point of comparisons tbh. Yeah pretty much anything else is going to look bad in comparison because there's no way to make "we're running a protection racket for a guy who admitted to having *** with a woman without her consent, and he isn't even that good" look good. So it doesn't really have any bearing either way on whether Ryder was treated properly or not.
 

The_CricketUmpire

U19 Captain
I'd expect an average of 30+. Carey was definitely delivering that for a while but in recent times he hasn't.

Past 20 innings: 3, 10, 2, 65, 15, 38, 53, 4, 34, 28, 10, 20, 5, 8, 21, 22, 20, 66, 66*, 48.

Runs: 538
Average: 28.31
50s: 4
Not Outs: 1
Ducks: 0

He has been handy without being really good. Looking at those scores......12 times out in the 1-25 range. Consistency needed.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
The idea that any amount of good glove work justifies non-existent contributions with the bat, especially in a side with a brittle lower-middle order that needs all the batting it can get, should have died years ago.
Also Carey isn't that good with the gloves. He's good, and excellent against spin - though still not in Foakes's class, for example - but not flawless. To even have a prayer of justifying his place with his current batting contributions he has to be completely impeccable and he just isn't - he still has that issue where he doesn't transfer his weight properly onto his right foot when Starc especially is bowling over the wicket and it causes him to miss catches or even ignore catches to his right. It's a somewhat of a nitpick criticism but you know what, when "I'm the best keeper" is literally all you have going for you, even nitpicks can become serious problems.
 

OverratedSanity

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Also Carey isn't that good with the gloves. He's good, and excellent against spin - though still not in Foakes's class, for example - but not flawless. To even have a prayer of justifying his place with his current batting contributions he has to be completely impeccable and he just isn't - he still has that issue where he doesn't transfer his weight properly onto his right foot when Starc especially is bowling over the wicket and it causes him to miss catches or even ignore catches to his right. It's a somewhat of a nitpick criticism but you know what, when "I'm the best keeper" is literally all you have going for you, even nitpicks can become serious problems.
He's be more valuable if he played for an Asian team tbh because of how many more difficult chances off the spinners come to the keeper in those conditions. Needs more runs to justify selection for a SENA team.
 

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