How would 80s WI and 2000s Australia fare in unbeatable current India?

[HouHsiaoHsien]

The fact that "unbeatable current India" was beaten by England in India over the weekend, leads me to believe the two sides in the OP would crush the current India.

This India yes. The India of 2016-19 no

 

[subshakerz]

That lineup had peak Kohli and Pujara. Also towards the later part, Pant and Rohit had started to emerge. Around about 2018/19, the side had peak Kohli, Pujara, Rohit, Pant.

Even those guys struggled to lesser spinners from SA and Aus when the pitches became really spicy.

So if India play slower wickets, Aus/WI's superior batting quality will shine through, and they instantly have a strong advantage to ratchet bigger scoreboard pressure and squeeze India.

If they play rank turners, I sincerely believe it becomes a 50/50 tossup, since either side has advantages that cancel each other out, and one cameo innings from Viv, Gilly or Pant can effectively make all the difference. Even if you think India have an edge, it will be a calculated risk. The reason India were comfortable with this strategy is they weren't playing ATG level attacks so they backed themselves.

IMO, knowing the defensive curator mindset, India will be extremely scared to play 3-4 rank turners against Warne/MacGill. Just think about it. They may go the opposite extreme and prepare dull slow wickets to ensure draws rather than risk a possible rout. But that sense of weakness will be all a champion team like Australia need.

Overall, WI/Aus quality is going to edge them ahead IMO over a long series.

 

[kyear2]

Agreed

 

[Kenneth Viljoen]

Well yeah the current team but I think the OP is assuming the Indian team has a lineup like:

KL
Rohit
Pujara
Kohli*
Rahane
Dhoni+
Jadeja
Ashwin
Shami
Umesh/Siraj/Axar
Bumrah

Honestly I'd take Murali Vijay over Rahul ,
He averaged 47 in India and played some good knocks on challenging decks at home. I remember the 2015 series vs SA he was one of the best batsmen where everyone struggled

 

[OverratedSanity]

Even those guys struggled to lesser spinners from SA and Aus when the pitches became really spicy.

Hardly a good point. It's not as if those Australia and especially West Indies teams didn't collapse on occasion against mediocre spinners in the right conditions. Alan Border took an 11fer against the Windies ffs, the **** do you think Jadeja is going to do to them on a turner? Those were the two greatest teams ever but they weren't infallible, particularly against spin.

 

[capt_Luffy]

The fact that "unbeatable current India" was beaten by England in India over the weekend, leads me to believe the two sides in the OP would crush the current India.

Was expecting this comment from someone.....

 

[capt_Luffy]

Even those guys struggled to lesser spinners from SA and Aus when the pitches became really spicy.

So if India play slower wickets, Aus/WI's superior batting quality will shine through, and they instantly have a strong advantage to ratchet bigger scoreboard pressure and squeeze India.

If they play rank turners, I sincerely believe it becomes a 50/50 tossup, since either side has advantages that cancel each other out, and one cameo innings from Viv, Gilly or Pant can effectively make all the difference. Even if you think India have an edge, it will be a calculated risk. The reason India were comfortable with this strategy is they weren't playing ATG level attacks so they backed themselves.

IMO, knowing the defensive curator mindset, India will be extremely scared to play 3-4 rank turners against Warne/MacGill. Just think about it. They may go the opposite extreme and prepare dull slow wickets to ensure draws rather than risk a possible rout. But that sense of weakness will be all a champion team like Australia need.

Overall, WI/Aus quality is going to edge them ahead IMO over a long series.

Australia 2000s did lost an Ashes against a pretty average English side, and drew with a pretty average India at home (though in McGrath's absence). I think you asked that question what will this team's legacy be on losing a series now, like Australia did a bunch at the end of the 2000s and how that shouldn't factor.... I say let them atleast lose this series.

 

[subshakerz]

Hardly a good point. It's not as if those Australia and especially West Indies teams didn't collapse on occasion against mediocre spinners in the right conditions. Alan Border took an 11fer against the Windies ffs, the **** do you think Jadeja is going to do to them on a turner? Those were the two greatest teams ever but they weren't infallible, particularly against spin.

Fair point and I grant that. But I am saying on such pitches, it is very hard for either of us to determine which side has any edge honestly, because it is small at best given India's home familiarity and the other teams overall quality, so such games will likely be determined by outlier innings here or there as all bowlers will have a field day.

All we know for sure is that on slower tracks, Aus/WI will be heavy favorites.

I just think the long the series, overall quality will supercede home familiarity.

 

[subshakerz]

Australia 2000s did lost an Ashes against a pretty average English side, and drew with a pretty average India at home (though in McGrath's absence). I think you asked that question what will this team's legacy be on losing a series now, like Australia did a bunch at the end of the 2000s and how that shouldn't factor.... I say let them atleast lose this series.

They lost to one of the best English sides ever in 2005 and mostly due to McGrath being injured/absent.

ATG Australia on this board we all consider to have ended their reign once Warne and McGrath retired in 2007.

 

[capt_Luffy]

They lost to one of the best English sides ever in 2005 and mostly due to McGrath being injured/absent.

ATG Australia on this board we all consider to have ended their reign once Warne and McGrath retired in 2007.

And don't you think it's a little harsh on ATG India to consider them the same team in the absence of their whole middle order??

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Even those guys struggled to lesser spinners from SA and Aus when the pitches became really spicy.

So if India play slower wickets, Aus/WI's superior batting quality will shine through, and they instantly have a strong advantage to ratchet bigger scoreboard pressure and squeeze India.

If they play rank turners, I sincerely believe it becomes a 50/50 tossup, since either side has advantages that cancel each other out, and one cameo innings from Viv, Gilly or Pant can effectively make all the difference. Even if you think India have an edge, it will be a calculated risk. The reason India were comfortable with this strategy is they weren't playing ATG level attacks so they backed themselves.

IMO, knowing the defensive curator mindset, India will be extremely scared to play 3-4 rank turners against Warne/MacGill. Just think about it. They may go the opposite extreme and prepare dull slow wickets to ensure draws rather than risk a possible rout. But that sense of weakness will be all a champion team like Australia need.

Overall, WI/Aus quality is going to edge them ahead IMO over a long series.

On really slow surfaces in Ind, I don’t think Aus of the 2000s are clearly better than Ind atleast, cause they aren’t a better team at playing spin than Ind of 2010s(with Kohli(who dominated Shakib and Hearth on SC wickets), Pujara, Pant and Rohit). And whether Warne would be as good as Ashwin/Jadeja on these pitches is not 100% proven.

 

[subshakerz]

And don't you think it's a little harsh on ATG India to consider them the same team in the absence of their whole middle order??

Yeah I consider 2016 to 2019 side stronger overall though this side has a better bowling attack.

 

[Line and Length]

Was expecting this comment from someone.....

It's what you get when you put "unbeatable" in a thread title.

 

[subshakerz]

On really slow surfaces in Ind, I don’t think Aus of the 2000s are clearly better than Ind atleast, cause they aren’t a better team at playing spin than Ind of 2010s(with Kohli(who dominated Shakib and Hearth on SC wickets), Pujara, Pant and Rohit). And whether Warne would be as good as Ashwin/Jadeja on these pitches is not 100% proven.

When I say slow, I mean slow turning, not rank turners.

On rank turners, all batting lineups are struggling. On low, slow turning, spin is neutralised somewhat.

And Australia and WI had great winning series against top spinners too away, like Murali, Kumble and the 70s spin quartet. I don't buy at all that Kohli's team was better at playing spin.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

When I say slow, I mean slow turning, not rank turners.

On rank turners, all batting lineups are struggling. On low, slow turning, spin is neutralised somewhat.

And Australia and WI had great winning series against top spinners too away, like Murali, Kumble and the 70s spin quartet.

Would you say Warne/Macgill would be better on those pitches than Ashwin/Jadeja on those low slow turning pitches? Because I don’t think the 2000s lineup of Aus is particularly better at playing spin.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

WI I agree perhaps, because of Lloyd and Viv, and the quartet(which could be destructive on any track).

 

[subshakerz]

Would you say Warne/Macgill would be better on those pitches than Ashwin/Jadeja on those low slow turning pitches? Because I don’t think the 2000s lineup of Aus is particularly better at playing spin.

I am saying on those pitches, like we saw for Eng 2016/17 series or others, both spin attacks are hampered somewhat, but the better batting lineup will add more scoreboard pressure.

Aus still regularly managed 400 plus scores in India in 2001 and 2004/5. You are underrating their batting.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Yeah I consider 2016 to 2019 side stronger overall though this side has a better bowling attack.

Just like everyone outside India, you are massively underrating how good Umesh, shami and ishant were in home conditions. Bumrah changed the complexion of the team outside Asia but at home those guys were performing obscenely well for years and outbowling touring pacers consistently (even world class ones like Cummins, Rabada, Anderson, Hazelwood) during that period. This attack isn't significantly better at home even with Bumrah's addition imo especially because Siraj has been hot and cold.

 

[subshakerz]

Just like everyone outside India, you are massively underrating how good Umesh, shami and ishant were in home conditions. Bumrah changed the complexion of the team outside Asia but at home those guys were performing obscenely well for years and outbowling touring pacers consistently (even world class ones like Cummins, Rabada, Anderson, Hazelwood) during that period. This attack isn't significantly better at home even with Bumrah's addition imo especially because Siraj has been hot and cold.

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They were excellent. I've given them credit before. But Bumrah and Axal added to Jadeja and Ashwin is slightly more potent IMO. Bumrah I see as a flat track threat too.

 

[Silver Silva]

I don't think Pakistani legends would be afraid of Ashwin and Jadeja either ...
It's just a question of team chemistry being on point which isn't always the case with Pakistan cricket ..

We really missed out on a great battle in the 2010's cause of politics

Younus Khan & Misbah on slow turners vs Ashwin & Jadeja would have been great to watch