Dennis Lillee vs Allan Donald

[BazBall21]

It isn't for Ambrose because Ambrose played decidedly more tests than lillee away. And Ambrose actually played the best team of his time away, where lillee did not. Apples and oranges afaic.

Tbf Dennis did play the best team in the world during the second half of his career and did pretty well. He also dominated the English batting lineup that won comfortably in Australia at the start of the 70s.

 

[Slifer]

Tbf Dennis did play the best team in the world during the second half of his career and did pretty well. He also dominated the English batting lineup that won comfortably in Australia at the start of the 70s.

Not away. Lillee never played the WI in the Caribbean where he'd have gotten a taste of the bs him (Australia) and Tommo dished out in '76.

 

[BazBall21]

I don't see how Donald is better if he is 4 points behind. And McGrath has multiple series where he came good against SA home and away, unlike Donald.

Donald's overall image against Australia is de-flattered a bit by the final two series' of his career both coming against them when he was past it. But you've made some valid points that he clearly wasn't as good against them as Ambrose or Lillee against WI etc.

Questioning his England 1998 tour though felt harsh imo. 33 wickets in 5 tests. Surely he's been let down by teammates there?

 

[BazBall21]

Not away. Lillee never played the WI in the Caribbean where he'd have gotten a taste of the bs him (Australia) and Tommo dished out in '76.

This is a problematic and arguably subjective point of discussion but I feel that WSC was serious and noteworthy. Lillee went well in WI there including an incredible performance in Antigua.

 

[Slifer]

This is a problematic and arguably subjective point of discussion but I feel that WSC was serious and noteworthy. Lillee went well in WI there including an incredible performance in Antigua.

Yeah that's all good and well but you may not know this but in other threads, I've tried using Chappell's wsc performances in the WI to highlight his amazing batsmanship. It was dismissed because it wasn't test cricket. Therefore I'll do the same here. Lillee never played an actual away tesr series in the WI.

 

[Bolo.]

Not away. Lillee never played the WI in the Caribbean where he'd have gotten a taste of the bs him (Australia) and Tommo dished out in '76.

Lillee played one in the WI. Just didn't take any wickets.

 

[BazBall21]

Yeah that's all good and well but you may not know this but in other threads, I've tried using Chappell's wsc performances in the WI to highlight his amazing batsmanship. It was dismissed because it wasn't test cricket. Therefore I'll do the same here. Lillee never played an actual away tesr series in the WI.

Haha. Like Ian. Good top 3 bat with some tough hundreds. I've read before that he's deeply respected in the Caribbean.

I suppose if we're strictly sticking to Test resume then Lillee in WI doesn't count but for me personally, performances in WSC does convey ability in red-ball cricket at the highest level so I tend to include it in my thinking for all players as well as just Dennis.

 

[BazBall21]

Lillee played one in the WI. Just didn't take any wickets.

He broke down after one test and shouldn't even have gone. The serious back treatment began in the 1972 ashes.

 

[subshakerz]

Donald's overall image against Australia is de-flattered a bit by the final two series' of his career both coming against them when he was past it. But you've made some valid points that he clearly wasn't as good against them as Ambrose or Lillee against WI etc.

Nah bro, it wasn't just the final two series. That is the misconception here. Donald until then didn't have a feared rep among Aussies. He had two middling series to start with. I think the key series was 96 in SA, when peak Donald flopped in the first test completely and in the key second test when Australia were chasing a tough score, only to come good in the last test with the series over. He got a fairweather perception.

Questioning his England 1998 tour though felt harsh imo. 33 wickets in 5 tests. Surely he's been let down by teammates there?

Yeah that England 98 series is the exception that proves the rule, since he did bowl magnificently overall but sadly couldn't bowl out England in the 3rd and 4th tests, which is my contention all along, he somehow had a habit of not being able to deliver when the stakes were highest. I mean, a bowler of his class should have had a couple of series winning bowling hauls away under his belt.

However, I don't mind saying he was great overall in England.

 

[subshakerz]

Pardon me but when we compare players the first place we begin has to be with the stats, otherwise you may as well pick someone like Mitchell Johnson who who had "impactful " series over someone like Alan Davidson.

We are comparing impact of bowlers with more closely similar stays though.

And it's not just the stats, apart from Waqar (and maybe Shoaib) Donald was probably the most exciting fast bowler I've seen in my time of watching cricket. You say we overrate him because of stats, I say stats are the most accurate reflection of a player's ability. Not the only one but the most accurate.

Then give this reason and don't hide it with stats reasoning.

You tell me. You were arguing that a 4 point average difference is less meaningful than the additional wickets when debating away performances for Imran and Ambrose.

They are pretty close on numbers. But Donald head by a decent margin due to opposition strength and the two last series thing.

Again, I would look at what impact Donald actually had in those series. Mostly he was middling with one good series as an exception. McGrath was either good or poor but ended up 4 points better.

 

[BazBall21]

Nah bro, it wasn't just the final two series. That is the misconception here. Donald until then didn't have a feared rep among Aussies. He had two middling series to start with. I think the key series was 96 in SA, when peak Donald flopped in the first test completely and in the key second test when Australia were chasing a tough score, only to come good in the last test with the series over. He got a fairweather perception.


Yeah that England 98 series is the exception that proves the rule, since he did bowl magnificently overall but sadly couldn't bowl out England in the 3rd and 4th tests, which is my contention all along, he somehow had a habit of not being able to deliver when the stakes were highest. I mean, a bowler of his class should have had a couple of series winning bowling hauls away under his belt.

However, I don't mind saying he was great overall in England.

Yeah I agree that him and Pollock both weren't great against the Aussies.

Just felt the England 98 example listed was a tad too harsh. He took 6 at Old Trafford. Could have done even better with the time he had but he was let down by teammates on that occasion. Similar case when they couldn't chase 170 in India though you could argue Javagal outperformed him in that test ig.

In the 4th test in 98, he got Atherton which could have opened England up. Unfortunately, the umpire dubbed it not out. This was more of a failure than the previous game I think because England chased 250 only 2 down.

Would you rate Donald above Holding, Garner and Waqar or not, as he's the discussion point this week?

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah I agree that him and Pollock both weren't great against the Aussies.

Just felt the England 98 example listed was a tad too harsh. He took 6 at Old Trafford. Could have done even better with the time he had but he was let down by teammates on that occasion. Similar case when they couldn't chase 170 in India though you could argue Javagal outperformed him in that test ig.

In the 4th test in 98, he got Atherton which could have opened England up. Unfortunately, the umpire dubbed it not out. This was more of a failure than the previous game I think because England chased 250 only 2 down.

Would you rate Donald above Holding, Garner and Waqar or not, as he's the discussion point this week?

Luck went against Donald (he could have easily had won that 3rd test in the final ball) I agree but at the end of the day, all great bowlers have to deal with that. It is just odd for me he doesn't have a series winning performance away under his belt.

Donald is above Waqar, Holding and Garner for sure.

 

[Slifer]

Yeah I agree that him and Pollock both weren't great against the Aussies.

Just felt the England 98 example listed was a tad too harsh. He took 6 at Old Trafford. Could have done even better with the time he had but he was let down by teammates on that occasion. Similar case when they couldn't chase 170 in India though you could argue Javagal outperformed him in that test ig.

In the 4th test in 98, he got Atherton which could have opened England up. Unfortunately, the umpire dubbed it not out. This was more of a failure than the previous game I think because England chased 250 only 2 down.

Would you rate Donald above Holding, Garner and Waqar or not, as he's the discussion point this week?

Unfortunately, I'd have to. Waqar was a shell of himself post injury and Holding and Garner relative to Donald just didn't play enough in "other' conditions. Holding famously played zero tests vs Pakistan.

 

[BazBall21]

Luck went against Donald I agree but at the end of the day, all great bowlers have to deal with that. It is just odd for me he doesn't have a series winning performance away under his belt.

Donald is above Waqar, Holding and Garner for sure.

Yeah. I have Donald a bit below Lillee/Trueman/Waqar but a bit better than those three.

 

[Bolo.]

Again, I would look at what impact Donald actually had in those series. Mostly he was middling with one good series as an exception. McGrath was either good or poor but ended up 4 points better.

He took 12 wickets in 2 games in the two wins in the first 2 series to square both series when Aus went in as huge favourites. Aus won everything for the next 15 years.

Impact: a shitload.

 

[subshakerz]

He took 12 wickets in 2 games in the two wins in the first 2 series to square both series when Aus went in as huge favourites. Aus won everything for the next 15 years.

Impact: a ****load.

Again, we are talking ATG impact, signature spells, etc. Fannie outstaged him in the Sydney test for example.

 

[Bolo.]

Again, we are talking ATG impact, signature spells, etc. Fannie outstaged him in the Sydney test for example.

 

[Slifer]

View attachment 38794

At this point, Subz is moving the entire field....

 

[Coronis]

Tbf that meme could summarise half the posters in CC.

 

[subshakerz]

View attachment 38794

At this point, Subz is moving the entire field....

Again, how? I have said this since the beginning. You all don't listen.

Great bowler but throughout his career he seemed to miss the big moments and big spells when it mattered. No real series winning effort away from home you can point to or signature spells. Just flashy figures.