Ambrose vs Warne: Greater Test Bowler?

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Shami is better than Ambrose. Better sc records. Good in sa and wi. And struggle in end and aus where there taking wickets doesn't make sense.

No one is putting Ambrose behind anyone less than ATG. Subz is putting him in the 8-10 range which isn’t really that much of a stretch.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

I would go for pacers:
Marshall
Mcgrath
Hadlee
Steyn
Imran/Ambrose
Akram/Lillee
Donald

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Steyn: great at home, ATG in Ind, nearly great in Australia, pretty good in Eng, meh in SL
Ambrose: great at home and in Eng, ATG in Aus
Imran: great at home, ATG in WI, very good in Eng, pretty good in Aus

 

[subshakerz]

Steyn: great at home, ATG in Ind, nearly great in Australia, pretty good in Eng, meh in SL
Ambrose: great at home and in Eng, ATG in Aus
Imran: great at home, ATG in WI, very good in Eng, pretty good in Aus

I put Imran over Steyn slightly since he was more consistent and less hittable in his prime.

 

[Saket1209]

I judge bowlers on how today they would have been with rules in favour of batsman. Ambrose with his consistency on hitting the right spots would have been lethal even today. Would have struggled in India like most bowlers but would have done well enough in SENA, Sl as their batsman can't handle good fast bowling even on dead tracks and wi. Imran played in the era where there was no restrictions on bouncers. You could literally scare the batsman and just Bowl a full delivery and he succums. Without reverse swing in today's era and not more than 2 bouncers , and cameras all over the place thus you can't tamper the ball to reverse it , he would have been someone like Khurram shehzad

 

[OverratedSanity]

I judge bowlers on how today they would have been with rules in favour of batsman. Ambrose with his consistency on hitting the right spots would have been lethal even today. Would have struggled in India like most bowlers but would have done well enough in SENA, Sl as their batsman can't handle good fast bowling even on dead tracks and wi. Imran played in the era where there was no restrictions on bouncers. You could literally scare the batsman and just Bowl a full delivery and he succums. Without reverse swing in today's era and not more than 2 bouncers , and cameras all over the place thus you can't tamper the ball to reverse it , he would have been someone like Khurram shehzad

Congrats. You have now made the new worst post in an already bad thread.

Needs an uber emotional response from an Imran fan like @trundler imo

 

[Saket1209]

I have seen previous game footage of imran Khan and believe me his speed was same as shardul thakur. He would have been just like him in bowling and ambrose, McGrath like Cummins , marshall similar to Steyn , Wasim similar to starc that is better odi bowler , would have performed in today's era

 

[Saket1209]

You all only think why don't we see reverse swing today. Forget about odis, just focus on tests. It should reverse like it used to in Pakistan. Why now Pakistani can reverse it now like imran , sarfaraz ,Wasim ,waqar becuase all were experts in tampering the ball. But still I love the other two because they had other skills but this imran was just good in reversing and tampering.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

I put Imran over Steyn slightly since he was more consistent and less hittable in his prime.

Close for sure, but I take Steyn. He was as good in Ind, as Imran in WI, or even better, (possibly facing a better lineup cause Sehwag and Tendulkar in Ind are as good as Viv in WI, on less conducive pitches), Both were great at home, i take Imran ahead cause he bowled on less conducive pitches at home(although Steyn has a far superior WPM and a better SR to compensate), however Steyn was better in Aus(considering context), and Imran slightly better in Eng or both nearly equal in Eng(since Steyn was orders of magnitude better than Anderson or Broad in the common matches average wise, and his average in Eng and his WPM there was very good at a decent SR as well)

 

[Bolo.]

Congrats. You have now made the new worst post in an already bad thread.

Needs an uber emotional response from an Imran fan like @trundler imo

Did you stand by this post for more than 2 minutes?

 

[Saket1209]

Anyone can pick loads of wicket by tampering the ball. In my locality, my rubbing the ball we swing it more than Anderson. So for me imran khan is not more than shardul. Okay let's be kind to him he is not more than kallis the bowler

 

[Saket1209]

Anyone can pick loads of wicket by tampering the ball. In my locality, my rubbing the ball we swing it more than Anderson. So for me imran khan is not more than shardul. Okay let's be kind to him he is not more than kallis the bowler

By rubbing one side of the cricket ball

 

[subshakerz]

Close for sure, but I take Steyn. He was as good in Ind, as Imran in WI, or even better, (possibly facing a better lineup cause Sehwag and Tendulkar in Ind are as good as Viv in WI, on less conducive pitches), Both were great at home, i take Imran ahead cause he bowled on less conducive pitches at home(although Steyn has a far superior WPM and a better SR to compensate), however Steyn was better in Aus(considering context), and Imran slightly better in Eng or both nearly equal in Eng(since Steyn was orders of magnitude better than Anderson or Broad in the common matches average wise, and his average in Eng and his WPM there was very good at a decent SR as well)

The difference in stats between them is minimal even give context, so I look at playing style to make the distinction. Imran generally had more control and when he wasn't taking wickets, he wasn't being leaked for runs either like Steyn, who got knocked around way too often.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

The difference in stats between them is minimal even give context, so I look at playing style to make the distinction. Imran generally had more control and when he wasn't taking wickets, he wasn't being leaked for runs either like Steyn, who got knocked around way too often.

Fair enough. I do think Steyn overall was a bigger and more frequent wicket taker and his fanatical SR pushes me towards him.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Saket making some very good points in this thread

 

[honestbharani]

I have seen previous game footage of imran Khan and believe me his speed was same as shardul thakur.

Dont demean the Lord FFS.

 

[honestbharani]

In my locality, my rubbing the ball

TMI mate...

 

[Migara]

I judge bowlers on how today they would have been with rules in favour of batsman. Ambrose with his consistency on hitting the right spots would have been lethal even today. Would have struggled in India like most bowlers but would have done well enough in SENA, Sl as their batsman can't handle good fast bowling even on dead tracks and wi. Imran played in the era where there was no restrictions on bouncers. You could literally scare the batsman and just Bowl a full delivery and he succums. Without reverse swing in today's era and not more than 2 bouncers , and cameras all over the place thus you can't tamper the ball to reverse it , he would have been someone like Kapil Dev Khurram shehzad

Switched on the review mode.

 

[Migara]

You all only think why don't we see reverse swing today. Forget about odis, just focus on tests. It should reverse like it used to in Pakistan. Why now Pakistani can reverse it now like imran , sarfaraz ,Wasim ,waqar becuase all were experts in tampering the ball. But still I love the other two because they had other skills but this imran was just good in reversing and tampering.

BS. Vaas and Malinga boomeranged it around in tests. Never even accused of ball tampering. They did pretty well with reverse swing let it be red or the white ball.

Just because some slow or un skilled "fast" bowlers who were unable to perfect the art, it doesn't mean art doesn't exist.

 

[kyear2]

No one is putting Ambrose behind anyone less than ATG. Subz is putting him in the 8-10 range which isn’t really that much of a stretch.

It is though.

Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee

Steyn
Ambrose

Imran
Donald
Lillee
Garner
Wasim
Lindwall
Trueman

Make the argument for anyone below to be objectively better.

Imran was not top 10 great outside of Pakistan, he averaged 25 away from home and didn't average below 24 in any single country except for 3 tests in minnow SL. If Ambrose lacked penetration, with his 54.5 strike rate, Imran couldn't have been much better at 53.7. He averaged 28 in Australia and India and even including his home tests averaged over 24 against 4 out of the 6 test teams he played with a strike rate of over 60 vs 3 of them.

Donald played in the same era of one Mr. Ambrose and a comparison of their records vs Australia is instructive, and he wasn't quite as destructive vs England. But against everyone else he was superb. Like Ambrose he doesn't have a broad overseas portfolio with over 5 tests in only 3 countries and not quite matching the big man in any of those 3. He did perform well in India in his limited opportunities. Donald was brilliant and the most underrated bowler on CW, and probably does deserve to be higher, challenging the 3 above him. But he doesn't come close to Ambrose's performances vs the best team of their era and wasn't quite good vs England. Plus no one from that era placed him above Curtly then or now.

DK lillee was one of the pioneers of the modern fast bowling revolution, he brought passion and fire back into the game and ignited rivalries (and a dynasty, can't win them all, lol). But he's also one of the most over rated players in the history of the game (outside of cw). If Ambrose's over seas resume is light, Lille's is practically non existent. He played all but 10 of his tests in two countries, and 5 of them were in NZ. He also primarily played vs three countries and averaged 30 and 27 vs two of them. In defence of the great man, he too had his health challenges and more than proved his brilliance in WSC cricket and lots of ROW encounters. He was capable of carrying an attack and was lethal when paired with Thompson. He however doesn't have anything on his test record to match what Ambrose did to Australia, though his record vs England is equally impressive.

Garner was always the sidekick, an exceptionally accurate and dangerous one and undoubtedly one of the best in history, but the no. 2 all the same. As excellent and under rated as Garner was, there's no argument here.

Wasim Akram, the enigmatic one. The greatest left handed bowler of all time, quite possibly the greatest proponent of reverse swing and most skilled fast bowler ever. Results wise he's not in Ambrose's class. Again, same era, omitting sample sizes and not even bothering with the home and away comps..... He averaged 25 vs. Australia, 30 vs England and 28 vs India. He did perform very well vs the WI and was known to give Lara and Sachin fits.

Any statistical analysis would be a disservice to Lindwall, and I have no desire to do so, and as brilliant as he was, he can no longer be seen as among the upper echelon of the top 5 / 6 of the game. And Trueman was with all respect was quite useless away from home.

This narrative that any of top dozen or so pacers are all basically the same don't bear or hold merit. The top 3 are quite apart from the rest, and I would be quite willing to demonstrate why, but believe everyone here knows that they had next to no holes and unmatched well rounded records while performing well vs the best batsmen and teams of their eras. Not to mention mastering a variety of skills they exploited better than anyone else, in all conditions. I personally believe the top two further separate themselves, but that's probably more subjective.