Ambrose vs Warne: Greater Test Bowler?

[capt_Luffy]

For both Imran and Steyn , context in essential. Even I used to think they are only decentish in Australia, but both are magnificent there(only below Ambrose/Hadlee tier in Australia). Even Steyn's performances in Eng are impressive in context. Ambrose got better pitches in Eng, and worse batting lineups. So you can't compare directly.

By that logic, you can't compare directly any two players. Be that Bradman and Sobers, or Marshall and McGrath; if they played in different eras, there's no direct comparison. Also, for the Kapil Dev comparison in WI; you brought in WPM, but WPI is a much better measure. Imran's is 3 and Kapil's is 2.7.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Steyn was definitely less great than usual in England and Australia. He struggled with Duke swing early on and ambrose style was much more suited to aussie pitches. Steyn's numbers were still really good in context of those high scoring series though, anyone bringing it up as some weakness is just wrong.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Steyn was definitely less great than usual in England and Australia. He struggled with Duke swing early on and ambrose style was much more suited to aussie pitches. Steyn's numbers were still really good in context of those high scoring series though, anyone bringing it up as some weakness is just wrong.

Yeah, but saying Steyn was better than Ambrose in those countries..... I can't get behind that.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

By that logic, you can't compare directly any two players. Be that Bradman and Sobers, or Marshall and McGrath; if they played in different eras, there's no direct comparison. Also, for the Kapil Dev comparison in WI; you brought in WPM, but WPI is a much better measure. Imran's is 3 and Kapil's is 2.7.

Compare with context in mind. And Kapil performed greatly in WI too. Imran marginally better, cause of a better WPI and SR

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Yeah, but saying Steyn was better than Ambrose in those countries..... I can't get behind that.

No one said that. But he was brilliant there, but cause of his average, his performance in marked down there.

 

[subshakerz]

Steyn was definitely less great than usual in England and Australia. He struggled with Duke swing early on and ambrose style was much more suited to aussie pitches. Steyn's numbers were still really good in context of those high scoring series though, anyone bringing it up as some weakness is just wrong.

Well, Steyn's figures there are only a weakness compared to Ambrose.

Steyn was hammered at times in England and Australia in a way that Ambrose wasn't.

Sure, he figures in those countries can be contextualised by flatter pitches but he still struggled relatively speaking.

As for Imran, the context is mainly to remove those tests which he played as specialist bat, and his figures are impressive while short of Ambrose magnificence.

 

[subshakerz]

Points for Warne against Ambrose:

- A larger sample of quality performances overall across conditions

- Tactically far better and capable of changing momentum in a game, even on flat pitches.

 

[Pothas]

Not actually read one of these threads properly for years. Nice to see they have not really changed at all. They are still just 'my favourite player is better than your favourite player.'

 

[kyear2]

No one said that. But he was brilliant there, but cause of his average, his performance in marked down there.

You can say he performed well, you can't say he was brilliant with that average.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Someone posted somedays back that out of the bowlers that era, Steyn has by far the best record in Australia. Plus some of his spells there were amongst the most important in SA history. This was talked about in the Viv vs Steyn thread

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Plus, most of what you said there for Viv also applies to Steyn. 08-09 where they dethroned Australia was the single most important series win in SA's history. The series in 2012 cemented them as the undisputed best team in the world again. He took a 10fer and scored a 76 in a partnership that brought SA back from a hopeless situation and won them their first series down under. It might be the single greatest all round performance in a game anyone's had in Australia.- Overrated Sanity(from the Viv vs Steyn thread)

fwiw the only other overseas pacers to average below 30 in Australia during Steyn’s career are Bumrah, Tremlett, Bravo, Bresnan and Rabada. (min 15 wickets) Steyn’s last tour was in 15/16 and Bumrah’s tour was 3 years after that.- Coronis

Summers of Tremlett/Bresnan (more bowler friendly than average) and Bumrah (Smith/Warner suspensions) were outliers as well.- PEWS

 

[kyear2]

Not actually read one of these threads properly for years. Nice to see they have not really changed at all. They are still just 'my favourite player is better than your favourite player.'

My issue with this thread is two fold.

Subz is basically calling everyone either blind or stupid and is claiming he's discovered something that no one's ever noticed to tear down one of the greatest bowlers ever. And why??

To prop up a bowler who isn't even involved in the poll or original question, because everything comes down to Imran.

Don't even remember how Steyn came in, who I happily say is better than Amby.

Ambrose wasn't the same / as great after his surgery, but he was there plugging away, when he wasn't the most penetrative, he compensated by maintaining pressure and not allowing runs, how's that a bad thing?
1. He was still capable and had moments of magic
2. He was never taken apart, do you know how hard it is to maintain that average being just "miserly", while supposedly not taking wickets? Come on. He was an asset to his team.

 

[kyear2]

Someone posted somedays back that out of the bowlers that era, Steyn has by far the best record in Australia. Plus some of his spells there were amongst the most important in SA history. This was talked about in the Viv vs Steyn thread

You do know I rank Steyn higher among bowlers than I do Viv among batsmen?

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

You do know I rank Steyn higher among bowlers than I do Viv among batsmen?

Sure, but I was just referring to that thread, to bring up that Steyn was great in Aus

 

[subshakerz]

My issue with this thread is two fold.

Subz is basically calling everyone either blind or stupid and is claiming he's discovered something that no one's ever noticed to tear down one of the greatest bowlers ever. And why??

To prop up a bowler who isn't even involved in the poll or original question, because everything comes down to Imran.

Don't even remember how Steyn came in, who I happily say is better than Amby.

No, I am saying that Warne is better and Ambrose isn't as great as we thought.

Ambrose wasn't the same / as great after his surgery, but he was there plugging away, when he wasn't the most penetrative, he compensated by maintaining pressure and not allowing runs, how's that a bad thing?
1. He was still capable and had moments of magic
2. He was never taken apart, do you know how hard it is to maintain that average being just "miserly", while supposedly not taking wickets? Come on. He was an asset to his team.

Because you are underestimating how unpenetrative he was. He basically wasn't an ATG bowler level for most of his career. Most series he couldn't take 4WPM. Yes, he was miserly, but not a regular matchwinner.

You are fine with treating hauls like 13 wickets in 4 tests as 'success' because of low average. It's not. It's below par for a premium strikebowler.

Except for Australia and England, Ambrose takes below 4WPM in all countries. A major issue.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

No, I am saying that Warne is better and Ambrose isn't as great as we thought.


Because you are underestimating how unpenetrative he was. He basically wasn't an ATG bowler level for most of his career. Most series he couldn't take 4WPM. Yes, he was miserly, but not a regular matchwinner.

You are fine with treating hauls like 13 wickets in 4 tests as 'success' because of low average.

and worse, 5 wickets in 2 matches, and 3 wickets in one

 

[kyear2]

QUOTE="subshakerz, post: 5143023, member: 13161"]
That is untrue. I was downgrading Ambrose respective to Warne and you went all sourpuss, and you brought Imran vs. Ambrose more in relation to a separate posters's arguments, not mine. I wasn't even wanting to bring Imran up then, except in the separate Imran vs Ambrose thread.

But the main issue in that thread was that you weren't even addressing the main argument against Ambrose's lack of penetration. You seemed ticked that I was honing in on that.
[/QUOTE]

Haven't this been done?

Answer remains the same for me, my top five pacers ahead of the top 2 spinners. Honestly though, due to strike rate Sir Curtly is probably the most vulnerable.

I think this is crazy close.

Unlike second tier ATG pacers like Imran and Steyn, Ambrose doesn't have as well rounded a record. I remain skeptical of how he would do in SC with just a couple of series to speak of, one good and one horrible. Post 94, more than half his career, he wasn't really penetrative. But he was very consistent too.

Warne's real weakness was India.

I would be interested to know why you think Imran should be below Warne and not Ambrose.

As stated, it's borderline for Ambrose, so anyone below would be as well. And I haven't said that Imran isn't ahead of them, as I've said in another thread, it's back and forth for me for if he's before or after the spinners.

And it's not a knock, he's locked in at 6th (among pacers) for me, where the consensus on the forum seems to be anywhere from 6th - 8th.

Additionally I do rate Warne marginally higher than Murali so it's incredibly close between the two of them.

Finally, been wondering why Warne is rated as highly as he is, especially by the establishment (saw yet another old sky vid where he was the named in the top 10 of all time, plus the only bowler to be mentioned). I have no doubt McGrath was better, but who was more important to the Aussie dynasty?

@subshakerz

What were you saying again?

 

[subshakerz]

[QUOTE="kyear2, post: 5143553,
What were you saying again?
[/QUOTE]
Fair enough, I guess I forgot those early in the thread, but I stand corrected and apologize for my mistatement in this regard.

 

[Saket1209]

Shami is better than Ambrose. Better sc records. Good in sa and wi. And struggle in end and aus where there taking wickets doesn't make sense.

 

[Saket1209]

Ambrose is now an ATVG pacer category or even worse.