Greatest Test XI

[capt_Luffy]

I wanted you to know the right stats, that's all
35.66 in Srilanka versus Sri Lanka. 31 in Pakistan versus Pakistan. Nothing to be proud of.

As I was saying, Imran has no such gaping holes... small or big... in his resume.

Yeah, Imran don't have any holes, however small, but he also doesn't have the exceptional record McGrath has in England, India and West Indies.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Garner and Trueman?

Okay, 12th is Imran, followed by Trueman, Younis, Holding, Garner, Donald, Lindwall, Davidson, Ashwin and Laker.

 

[bagapath]

Yeah, Imran don't have any holes, however small, but he also doesn't have the exceptional record McGrath has in England, India and West Indies.

Wrong:
He was exceptional in England
Won the man of the series with 21 wickets at 18 in 1982
Bowled Pakistan to a historic series win 1987 with a 10 wicket haul in Leeds
And outstanding in West Indies where in 1988 took 23 wickets in 3 tests and was man of the series, again, when West Indies could not win a home series.
He was deadly in the SL series he played in
Imran's 12 wickets in the 1977 Sydney test led Pakistan to a historic win on Australian soil
All exceptional stuff. A fast bowler for all seasons.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Wrong:
He was exceptional in England
Won the man of the series with 21 wickets at 18 in 1982
Bowled Pakistan to a historic series win 1987 with a 10 wicket haul in Leeds
And outstanding in West Indies where in 1988 took 23 wickets in 3 tests and was man of the series, again, when West Indies could not win a home series.
He was deadly in the SL series he played in
Imran's 12 wickets in the 1977 Sydney test led Pakistan to a historic win on Australian soil
All exceptional stuff. A fast bowler for all seasons.

But his overall averages their no longer reflect those properly (not taking Sri Lanka into the mix) like McGrath's does.

 

[Bolo.]

Pakistan had flat pitches throughout the 1970s and 80s... When Imran was at his peak...
If you take that into context his record in Pakistan is nothing short of magical...
Two of his worst series - the 87 series in India and the 89-90 series in Pakistan against India - were played on roads with 8 of the nine tests ending in draws and the one result coming on a minefield where the ball turned square from day one.

His home record is amazing, but I'm not sure being from Pakistan should really factor into assessing it.

Imran and Waqar both have much better home records than away. Wasim also has a better home record.

Pretty much all the other greats from the era have very similar home and away records, regardless of what country they come from.

 

[Qlder]

Why is there so much discussion about Imran? Last I checked he wasn't in any of the 3 teams up for a vote

 

[reyrey]

There is a reason why Imrans away record doesn't look as impressive as his home one and it's this.

Imran as the best bowler and star all rounder in the team was overworked. He bowled more overs per innings than almost any modern pace bowler and on average bowled 22% more deliveries per innings than a McGrath or Walsh. Add his batting and Captaincy on top of that and it's obvious he had a huge workload.

This took a toll on him and it would show in his 4th innings bowling performance. His bowling average in the 4th innings is horrific despite 4th innings pitches typically being more bowler friendly. The vast majority 14 out of 19 of those 4th innings came in away Tests. Here are his bowling averages for away Tests in each innings (I've provided Wasim Akrams away averages for comparison in brackets)

1st match innings 20.52 (27.10)
2nd match innings 29.37 (26.72)
3rd match innings 21.11 (21.31)
4th match innings 48.50 (21.63)

Now you can see why his overall bowling average in away Tests doesn't look quite as impressive.

 

[kyear2]

There is a reason why Imrans away record doesn't look as impressive as his home one and it's this.

Imran as the best bowler and star all rounder in the team was overworked. He bowled more overs per innings than almost any modern pace bowler and on average bowled 22% more deliveries per innings than a McGrath or Walsh. Add his batting and Captaincy on top of that and it's obvious he had a huge workload.

This took a toll on him and it would show in his 4th innings bowling performance. His bowling average in the 4th innings is horrific despite 4th innings pitches typically being more bowler friendly. The vast majority 14 out of 19 of those 4th innings came in away Tests. Here are his bowling averages for away Tests in each innings (I've provided Wasim Akrams away averages for comparison in brackets)

1st match innings 20.52 (27.10)
2nd match innings 29.37 (26.72)
3rd match innings 21.11 (21.31)
4th match innings 48.50 (21.63)

Now you can see why his overall bowling average in away Tests doesn't look quite as impressive.

I'm struggling to see how this makes sense. So you're saying batting twice tired him out? Because the extra blowing load you mentioned should have tired him out just as much in the 3rd innings as it did in the 4th.

Additionally the 2nd innings total also seems a lot higher than 1st and 3rd, was he also exhausted then?

You mentioned that 14 of the 19 innings occured away from home, so was it that he was tired and it impacted his 2nd and 4th innings and then by extension his away numbers? Or he was abroad more when he bowled in the 2nd and 4th innings and that impacted his numbers.

Seriously though, I have never seen more excuses found for one cricketer.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Pakistan had flat pitches throughout the 1970s and 80s... When Imran was at his peak...
If you take that into context his record in Pakistan is nothing short of magical...

Only if you don't take ball tampering and umpiring into context.

 

[reyrey]

I'm struggling to see how this makes sense. So you're saying batting twice tired him out? Because the extra blowing load you mentioned should have tired him out just as much in the 3rd innings as it did in the 4th.

Additionally the 2nd innings total also seems a lot higher than 1st and 3rd, was he also exhausted then?

You mentioned that 14 of the 19 innings occured away from home, so was it that he was tired and it impacted his 2nd and 4th innings and then by extension his away numbers? Or he was abroad more when he bowled in the 2nd and 4th innings and that impacted his numbers.

Seriously though, I have never seen more excuses found for one cricketer.

I never said he was tired or exhausted. I mentioned him being overworked and his workload and that taking a toll him. A prime athlete like Imran that toll would be just as much mental as physical.

I wouldn't consider a 2nd innings average of 29 a lot higher than his 1st and 3rd. I would consider a 4th innings average of 48 as one that's a lot higher. If you can't see how an average of 48 is a lot higher than 20/21 and 29 isn't then I can see why you're struggling here.

He was c**p when bowling in the 4th innings of a Test match when bowling conditions (pitch) are typically at their most bowler friendly and exceptional or good in every other innings. Do you really think the reason for this was a skill issue?

 

[howitzer]

I never said he was tired or exhausted. I mentioned him being overworked and his workload and that taking a toll him. A prime athlete like Imran that toll would be just as much mental as physical.

I wouldn't consider a 2nd innings average of 29 a lot higher than his 1st and 3rd. I would consider a 4th innings average of 48 as one that's a lot higher. If you can't see how an average of 48 is a lot higher than 20/21 and 29 isn't then I can see why you're struggling here.

He was c**p when bowling in the 4th innings of a Test match when bowling conditions are typically more bowler friendly and exceptional or good in every other innings. Do you really think the reason for this was a skill issue?

S K I L L I S S U E
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Skill issue.

nb. I don't really believe this.

 

[Coronis]

If this is some overwork issue then its his own damn fault as captain.

Not that I believe that in the first place, nor do I subscribe to average by innings.

 

[trundler]

Seriously though, I have never seen more excuses found for one cricketer.

Because there's only one you're obsessed with maligning.

 

[Coronis]

Seriously though, I have never seen more excuses found for one cricketer.

V I V
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V

 

[Bolo.]

Only if you don't take ball tampering and umpiring into context.

Akram and Waqar were both dominant at home in the 1 neutral umpire era, and at a time when their home umpires didn't get much flak

I think bowling in Pakistan was a different skillset to elsewhere. When a Mitch Johnson succeeds at the WACA and an Anderson fails it's easy to spot the difference in the skillsets that make it happen.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Akram and Waqar were both dominant at home in the 1 neutral umpire era, and at a time when their home umpires didn't get much flak

I think bowling in Pakistan was a different skillset to elsewhere. When a Mitch Johnson succeeds at the WACA and an Anderson fails it's easy to spot the difference in the skillsets that make it happen.

It is. Bowling in Australia, Pakistan, England and India are definitely not the same. But it's also true that, let's just say the Pakistani umpires during Imran's era don't have the best reputation.

 

[Bolo.]

It is. Bowling in Australia, Pakistan, England and India are definitely not the same. But it's also true that, let's just say the Pakistani umpires during Imran's era don't have the best reputation.

Ya, it's definitely a factor. But I think people probably put too much weight on it. They weren't the only country with dodgy home umpires. And Waqar has a similar record to Imran without umpires being the reason.

 

[ataraxia]

V I V
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It's IX, not VIV. Just fyi.

 

[kyear2]

I never said he was tired or exhausted. I mentioned him being overworked and his workload and that taking a toll him. A prime athlete like Imran that toll would be just as much mental as physical.

I wouldn't consider a 2nd innings average of 29 a lot higher than his 1st and 3rd. I would consider a 4th innings average of 48 as one that's a lot higher. If you can't see how an average of 48 is a lot higher than 20/21 and 29 isn't then I can see why you're struggling here.

He was c**p when bowling in the 4th innings of a Test match when bowling conditions (pitch) are typically at their most bowler friendly and exceptional or good in every other innings. Do you really think the reason for this was a skill issue?

What is the physical difference between the 3rd and 4th innings. Please explain. In both he would have already bowled one innings.

 

[kyear2]

Because there's only one you're obsessed with maligning.

I didn't start this conversation, but as usual I'm the only one you're willing to challenge on it.