Rank the Test Allrounders: Hadlee, Botham, Kallis

[shortpitched713]

I've changed my mind a lot about "all-rounder" rankings, as on further reading and considering posts I've reordered what I think are the top 12 all-rounders in my estimation. A big part is making contributions in both skillsets, not so much "value" overall ( where I think the bowling all-rounders generally come up trumps ). So for me Imran and Miller are at the very pinnacle when representing that ideal, followed by Sobers, etc.

But these three I think are in the tier just below the top, and you can't pick three more different players, Hadlee being an ace bowler who can bat, Kallis an ATG bat who could bowl, and Botham representing "balance" in two sided contributions. How would you rank their greatness as "all-rounders"?

 

[kyear2]

Kallis
Hadlee
Botham

 

[Aidan11]

Botham
Hadley
Kallis.

 

[Coronis]

@trundler

 

[Fuller Pilch]

As cricketers: Hadlee, Kallis, Botham

As allrounders: Kallis, Botham, Hadlee

 

[Jumno]

Hadlee was the far superior bowler.

However Botham was very skilled in both departments and the better batsman than hadlee.

Kallis great batsman.

However Botham is very skilled in both.

Botham overall gives more value.

 

[GIMH]

Botham, Hadlee, Kallis

 

[Jumno]

I've changed my mind a lot about "all-rounder" rankings, as on further reading and considering posts I've reordered what I think are the top 12 all-rounders in my estimation. A big part is making contributions in both skillsets, not so much "value" overall ( where I think the bowling all-rounders generally come up trumps ). So for me Imran and Miller are at the very pinnacle when representing that ideal, followed by Sobers, etc.

But these three I think are in the tier just below the top, and you can't pick three more different players, Hadlee being an ace bowler who can bat, Kallis an ATG bat who could bowl, and Botham representing "balance" in two sided contributions. How would you rank their greatness as "all-rounders"?

Sobers
Miller
Imran
Botham
Kapil Dev
Hadlee
Kallis

 

[kyear2]

Hadlee was the far superior bowler.

However Botham was very skilled in both departments and the better batsman than hadlee.

Kallis great batsman.

However Botham is very skilled in both.

Botham overall gives more value.

The problem with this analysis is that all rounder always wins, even over Bradman, Marshall, McGrath etc.

I guess I'm different, but (and as I've said multiple times) I rate players by their primary skills. Hadlee is just leagues above as a bowler than anything Botham can put on the table. Similarly with Kallis and his batting. Again, I probably rate then as cricketers rather than strictly as all rounders.

Also Botham had that amazing peak, but even as a batman his numbers vs the WI and Australia are not good.

 

[Prince EWS]

The problem with this analysis is that all rounder always wins, even over Bradman, Marshall, McGrath etc.

I guess I'm different, but (and as I've said multiple times) I rate players by their primary skills. Hadlee is just leagues above as a bowler than anything Botham can put on the table. Similarly with Kallis and his batting. Again, I probably rate then as cricketers rather than strictly as all rounders.

Also Botham had that amazing peak, but even as a batman his numbers vs the WI and Australia are not good.

Lol'd at Botham as a Batman.

 

[Prince EWS]

As cricketers: Hadlee, Kallis, Botham

As allrounders: Kallis, Botham, Hadlee

Would probably still take Hadlee over Botham as an allrounder but yeah largely agree.

 

[Coronis]

Lol'd at Botham as a Batman.

Wouldn’t be the worst one.

 

[kyear2]

Lol'd at Botham as a Batman.

He would have made a good Bruce Wayne

 

[kyear2]

Wouldn’t be the worst one.

And this

 

[flibbertyjibber]

As an all rounder I'd go for Botham, Kallis and then Hadlee but Hadlee was by far the best bowler and by far the worst bat. Kallis is by far the best bat and easily the worst bowler. Then you have Botham who in his early years was one of the greatest players ever and in his latter years was Derek Pringle II but he is English so bias puts him top.

 

[Line and Length]

A reminder of how destructive Botham at his best was.

 

[howitzer]

As an all rounder I'd go for Botham, Kallis and then Hadlee but Hadlee was by far the best bowler and by far the worst bat. Kallis is by far the best bat and easily the worst bowler. Then you have Botham who in his early years was one of the greatest players ever and in his latter years was Derek Pringle II but he is English so bias puts him top.

My big issue with Botham is his poor record against the best team of his time, even during his peak.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Sobers
Procter
HADLEE
Imran
Kapil
BOTHAM
Miller
KALLIS

 

[Bolo.]

My big issue with Botham is his poor record against the best team of his time, even during his peak.

Failure against 1 side is a bit overrated normally IMO, but in his case it meant he very seldom succeeded against any quality sides. At his peak, the top sides should have been England (didn't play obviously), WI (failed), AUS (mostly banned players) and RSA (completely banned).

Did well against Pak and NZ in his peak, which makes him look better as they matured into good sides later in his career, but he was pounding on weaker versions.

 

[howitzer]

Failure against 1 side is a bit overrated normally IMO, but in his case it meant he very seldom succeeded against any quality sides. At his peak, the top sides should have been England (didn't play obviously), WI (failed), AUS (mostly banned players) and RSA (completely banned).

Did well against Pak and NZ in his peak, which makes him look better as they matured into good sides later in his career, but he was pounding on weaker versions.

I don't think it's quite as bad as you suggest here. He went very well in a losing cause against the 79-80 Aussies who were pretty much at full strength and the 81 side, despite the lack of the decent Chappells was still on paper a pretty reasonable side.

Despite it being played in England i'd suggest the 1979 Indians were, on paper pretty decent too, with Gavaskar, Vengsarkar, Viswanath and Amarnath(two Tests) on the batting side and Kapil plus two quartet members on the bowling. Their bowling declined thereafter however, and barring the Jubilee Test where he was undeniably brilliant, he didn't bowl well against their quality batting thereafter.