Bowler / Batting Analogues

[mr_mister]

Oh and they're both arguably batting all rounders but Stan McCabe reminds me of Ben Stokes in terms of both having 3 absolute clutch, potentially top 30 batting performances ever, but neither being considered an ATG bat when considering whole careers

 

[Prince EWS]

Shardul Thakur - Cameron Bancroft

#punished

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Lol

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Chris Martin - Ross Taylor

Both extremely bad at their other discipline, but both of their peaks involve Harbhajan Singh.

 

[thierry henry]

Not sure about Border/Hadlee from OP, my perception is that Border was doggedly and inelegantly effective while Hadlee was poetry in motion by comparison.

I assume the comparison is "mentally tough players who carried the team"?

 

[kyear2]

There’s an argument but it probably leans towards Richards. That said, there’s an argument for Imran but it leans towards Hadlee. It’s all very close.

There was never an argument for Gavaskar for best of the era, definitely not during the era, and not after either.
His record in the west indies is among the most misleading in test cricket, and when he did face the original quartet he was primarily successful in Guyana and to a lesser extent in Trinidad.
He thrived in Australia primarily in the WSC period and there after primarily succeeded in Sydney.

Please don't get me wrong, he was a magnificent player and scored lots of impactful hundreds, but he definitely preferred slower surfaces and cashed in during WSC. And while I'm sure there are some, don't recall any bowlers from the era who placed him above Viv.

And just clarifying, there's an argument for Imran, but leans towards Hadlee, that's referring to the best of the era as well?

 

[kyear2]

As Trundler said, definitely

McGrath and Tendulkar
Wasim and Viv

I'll add

Imran and Sobers (just referring to primary disciplines, but also as 3 way contributors)

Proposing

Who's a good analogue for Marshall? Smith?
Can't think of a quite suitable one.

 

[mr_mister]

I reckon Hobbs for Marshall

 

[kyear2]

I would say,

Steve Smith - Bill O’Reilly

Near perfect records. Similar mentality plus different technique compared to rest.

Stan McCabe - Keith Miller (Bowler)

Better than what their exact stats says. Seemed to always step up when needed.

Victor Trumper - Dennis Lillee

At their peak, probably the most famous batsman and quick in Australia ever. Also both players stats don’t quite match the peer review and the reputation.

How is O'Reilly's record perfect?

He played 27 tests vs two countries, and averaged 25 with a strike rate in the 70's vs the only good one.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

How is O'Reilly's record perfect?

He played 27 tests vs two countries, and averaged 25 with a strike rate in the 70's vs the only good one.

Lowest bowling average in Shield History. Better than McGrath, Warne, Lindwall, Lillee all of them. Knocked The Greatest of all time 8 times with The Greatest himself despite all the bias being in doubt about O’Reilly being THE BEST BOWLER OF ANY TYPE.

Averaged 17 against SA which fielded Nourse, Mitchell, Vijloen, Cameron and Rowan. Averaged just 25 bowling to The Mighty Hammond, Sutcliffe with Leyland, Paynter, Ames etc. to follow up when no bowler averaged less than 30 in flat decks. Got 1 match against minnows when he was 40 and averaged like 5!

Tiger would have made a hey if Australia actually had England’s schedule of 30s or schedule of teams of 60s,70s,80s etc. bowling to Bums.

 

[mr_mister]

How is O'Reilly's record perfect?

He played 27 tests vs two countries, and averaged 25 with a strike rate in the 70's vs the only good one.

Those 30s pitches were known to be docile featherbeds. The individual batting high score world record got beaten 3 times. O'Reilly's average against England is pretty good considering that imo. Plus he had to bowl to Hammond, Sutcliffe, Hutton, Compton etc

He did take at least 22 wickets in each of the 4 ashes series he played as well it must be said. Fairly consistent


Even the great Shane Warne who is known for terrorising England got his 195 Ashes wickets @ 23, only 2 runs better than O'Reilly

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Those 30s pitches were known to be docile featherbeds. The individual batting high score world record got beaten 3 times. O'Reilly's average against England is pretty good considering that imo. Plus he had to bowl to Hammond, Sutcliffe, Hutton, Compton etc

He did take at least 22 wickets in each of the 4 ashes series he played as well it must be said. Fairly consistent


Even the great Shane Warne who is known for terrorising England got his 195 Ashes wickets @ 23, only 2 runs better than O'Reilly

Important to say Warne actually bowled to Bums from England. Hussain, Vaughan,trescothick, lol.

 

[kyear2]

Understood that he was a great bowler, don't think anyone ranks him lower than 3rd. And yes, the pitches were ridiculously flat there's no disputing that.

The arguments against Headley and Pollock is that they didn't play enough tests, not enough varied conditions, and this holds true especially for a spinner. It's easy to say Warne has holes, but he also faced Sachin and India, Lara, they had ebbs and flows in their careers over time.
Don't think he played enough matches or vs enough teams in different conditions to say he had a perfect record.

He had a great record, but it wasn't perfect by any means and didn't have the longevity or variety to add to it.

 

[Slifer]

As Trundler said, definitely

McGrath and Tendulkar
Wasim and Viv

I'll add

Imran and Sobers (just referring to primary disciplines, but also as 3 way contributors)

Proposing

Who's a good analogue for Marshall? Smith?
Can't think of a quite suitable one.

I think so. Would've said Sachin. But though he was consistent (for me) Sachin never really reached any dizzying heights or monster series the way Marshall did or Smith for that matter plus both were as consistent as Sachin. And Sachin is all by himself when it comes to longevity

 

[kyear2]

I think so. Would've said Sachin. But though he was consistent (for me) Sachin never really reached any dizzying heights or monster series the way Marshall did or Smith for that matter plus both were as consistent as Sachin. And Sachin is all by himself when it comes to longevity

That's why Sachin is linked with McGrath, though McGrath adds the peaks to go with the longevity.

So yeah, Smith or Hobbs.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Nah, Viv was has a good record all conditions, against peak bowlers in those conditions. Gavaskar failed against any proper Australian attack in Australia, but piled runs against very sub par attacks there.

Yeah i think the "Gavaskar only bashed sub par west indies attacks" is a very overplayed narrative (he made lots of runs against them when some combination if not quite the entire quartet was playing) but this one is actually a legit critique. Those aussie attacks were very very poor with usually just one good bowler in Thomson or Reid and the rest were a bunch of no names.

 

[kyear2]

Yeah i think the "Gavaskar only bashed sub par west indies attacks" is a very overplayed narrative (he made lots of runs against them when some combination if not quite the entire quartet was playing) but this one is actually a legit critique. Those aussie attacks were very very poor with usually just one good bowler in Thomson or Reid and the rest were a bunch of no names.

A substantial amount (can't remember exactly right now) was against pre quartet attacks, but some were against the later teams, just happened to be in India or the slower pitches in the WI.
Don't know if that is to his detriment or not, because it does stand to reason it's easier to score in easier conditions.

But would have added to his legacy and elevated him to that highest of classes and mentioned alongside Viv if he did it in more adverse conditions against some of the stranger WI or Aus attacks.

 

[OverratedSanity]

A substantial amount (can't remember exactly right now) was against pre quartet attacks, but some were against the later teams, just happened to be in India or the slower pitches in the WI.
Don't know if that is to his detriment or not, because it does stand to reason it's easier to score in easier conditions.

But would have added to his legacy and elevated him to that highest of classes and mentioned alongside Viv if he did it in more adverse conditions against some of the stranger WI or Aus attacks.

Yes that's fair. But those pacers were great enough to be deadly on slower surfaces as well, it's not fair to entirely write off the runs he did get. Also , Gavaskar had the toughest gig compared to other great batsmen of his era when it came to facing the west indies pacers (when he did face threm). Facing them as a middle order batsman is tough enough but opening against them is a whole different beast. And with no reliable opening partner. Gavaskar holds the record for having the most number of partners over his career for any opening batsman in history (17). The only one who stuck around for even moderate success was chetan chauhan. Gavaskar was facing these bowlers with the new ball and effectively always one wicket down.

He also had a lot of success against Imran Khan in the early 80s when Imran was at his peak, which should probably get more acclaim than it does considering the bowling numbers Imran was putting up.

 

[mr_mister]

Yes that's fair. But those pacers were great enough to be deadly on slower surfaces as well, it's not fair to entirely write off the runs he did get. Also , Gavaskar had the toughest gig compared to other great batsmen of his era when it came to facing the west indies pacers (when he did face threm). Facing them as a middle order batsman is tough enough but opening against them is a whole different beast. And with no reliable opening partner. Gavaskar holds the record for having the most number of partners over his career for any opening batsman in history (17). The only one who stuck around for even moderate success was chetan chauhan. Gavaskar was facing these bowlers with the new ball and effectively always one wicket down.

He also had a lot of success against Imran Khan in the early 80s when Imran was at his peak, which should probably get more acclaim than it does considering the bowling numbers Imran was putting up.

Really? Would have thought surely Cook or maybe Gooch

 

[Coronis]

And while I'm sure there are some, don't recall any bowlers from the era who placed him above Viv.

Not agreeing/disagreeing about Gavaskar vs Viv, but this is a stupid argument to use.

I recall many batsmen placing Wasim above McGrath, for instance.