Which would you pick for a Test bowling all-rounder spot on a team?

[shortpitched713]

Akram is the obvious choice unless you want a weak tail. Marshall isn't an allrounder.

That was kind of the point. To give some bowling allrounders who offer enough more with the bat than Marshall but were still ace seamers to make this interesting. I am beginning to see their point a bit on the Marshall thing, I'm not really sure the choices of Lindwall, Akram out of the seamers are really offering that much more with the bat to justify keeping out Marshall even though they are aces in their own right (In b4 I forgot Alan Davidson, just added him in now).

My reasoning for going with the spinner Ashwin, was that he is the most likely to win the match for you on his own against a quality batting lineup, if it's a real spinning track, as unlike the seamers he wouldn't have to be spelled. Although I'll cede that likelihood of happening depends on what your home conditions are.

Really would have thought more people would bite with Botham. He's the remaining one of the late 70s, 80s allrounders that is often held up as being a potential GOAT allrounder candidate. Guess people just don't rate him here.

Just added Kapil as well, now that I remembered to add Davidson. Think Davidson could split potential Lindwall voters (Read: old-timers/philes), and didn't expect anyone who might have picked Dev to pick him in the presence of Botham.

 

[Prince EWS]

That was kind of the point. To give some bowling allrounders who offer enough more with the bat than Marshall but were still ace seamers to make this interesting. I am beginning to see their point a bit on the Marshall thing, I'm not really sure the choices of Lindwall, Akram out of the seamers are really offering that much more with the bat to justify keeping out Marshall even though they are aces in their own right (In b4 I forgot Alan Davidson, just added him in now).

My reasoning for going with the spinner Ashwin, was that he is the most likely to win the match for you on his own against a quality batting lineup, if it's a real spinning track, as unlike the seamers he wouldn't have to be spelled. Although I'll cede that likelihood of happening depends on what your home conditions are.

Really would have thought more people would bite with Botham. He's the remaining one of the late 70s, 80s allrounders that is often held up as being a potential GOAT allrounder candidate. Guess people just don't rate him here.

Just added Kapil as well, now that I remembered to add Davidson. Think Davidson could split potential Lindwall voters (Read: old-timers/philes), and didn't expect anyone who might have picked Dev to pick him in the presence of Botham.

Did you forget Pollock or did you just think it was too easy a pick? I'd have picked Pollock. Very tempted to pick Davo now even though he under-achieved in Tests with the bat a bit.

 

[shortpitched713]

Did you forget Pollock or did you just think it was too easy a pick? I'd have picked Pollock. Very tempted to pick Davo now even though he under-achieved in Tests with the bat a bit.

I think Pollock would have been too easy. He's just Imran/Hadlee(the obvious choices) lite in most people's minds ( much better than that in mine ). Similarly Miller is a souped up Botham, so can't coexist in a poll with him as a viable candidate.

 

[shortpitched713]

Ooh, you switched to Davidson from Marshall. Interesting.

Anyway, it looked like the vast majority just went with the best possible bowler they saw on the list.

Gives me a thread idea, which 4 man pace quartet would you choose?:

McGrath, McGrath, McGrath, McGrath
vs.
Pollock, Pollock, Pollock, Pollock

 

[shortpitched713]

Ooh, you switched to Davidson from Marshall. Interesting.

Anyway, it looked like the vast majority just went with the best possible bowler they saw on the list.

Gives me a thread idea, which 4 man pace quartet would you choose?:

McGrath, McGrath, McGrath, McGrath
vs.
Pollock, Pollock, Pollock, Pollock

Think I'll go Pollock for the added diversity.

 

[Prince EWS]

I think Pollock would have been too easy. He's just Imran/Hadlee(the obvious choices) lite in most people's minds ( much better than that in mine ). Similarly Miller is a souped up Botham, so can't coexist in a poll with him as a viable candidate.

Yeah fair.

I've changed my vote to Davo, especially since part of my reason for going to Marshall was that he underachieved with the bat a bit in Tests and could have been expected to do a bit more in a worse batting lineup with more responsibility - which I think is also true for Davo.

His standardised average was 27 with the bat and it'd be even higher if we exclude the games he batted 9 or 10 in. He was thought highly enough to bat ahead of Benaud for quite a lot of his career, and he averaged mid 30s in the Sheffield Shield. I think we're getting close to Pollock standard here with the bat and he was a better bowler too.

 

[shortpitched713]

Yeah fair.

I've changed my vote to Davo, especially since part of my reason for going to Marshall was that he underachieved with the bat a bit in Tests and could have been expected to do a bit more in a worse batting lineup with more responsibility - which I think is also true for Davo.

His standardised average was 27 with the bat and it'd be even higher if we exclude the games he batted 9 or 10 in. He was thought highly enough to bat ahead of Benaud for quite a lot of his career, and he averaged mid 30s in the Sheffield Shield. I think we're getting close to Pollock standard here with the bat and he was a better bowler too.

I thought not outs were just automatic average raisers. Hence why Bradman also shamelessly farmed them late in his career in a blatant bid to try and keep his average over 100.

YES THIS WHOLE BIT IS IN JEST

 

[Prince EWS]

I thought not outs were just automatic average raisers. Hence why Bradman also shamelessly farmed them late in his career in a blatant bid to try and keep his average over 100.

YES THIS WHOLE BIT IS IN JEST

If you bat someone with genuine batting talent at 9 or 10 they'll often not take it as seriously and bat recklessly, especially if they get stuck with the 11. I know you're taking the piss a bit (especially because you admitted such, lol) but I wasn't talking about not outs at all, just psychology and circumstance.

 

[shortpitched713]

If you bat someone with genuine batting talent at 9 or 10 they'll often not take it as seriously and bat recklessly, especially if they get stuck with the 11. I know you're taking the piss a bit (especially because you admitted such, lol) but I wasn't talking about not outs at all, just psychology and circumstance.

Eh, I find that argument almost as weak as the one I made in jest. Think it probably tends to even out in the end.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Kapil.. Because Akram is not an AR

 

[kyear2]

Ooh, you switched to Davidson from Marshall. Interesting.

Anyway, it looked like the vast majority just went with the best possible bowler they saw on the list.

Gives me a thread idea, which 4 man pace quartet would you choose?:

McGrath, McGrath, McGrath, McGrath
vs.
Pollock, Pollock, Pollock, Pollock

McGrath

 

[honestbharani]

One of those times when The Answer is really the answer

 

[Bolo.]

McGrath

What level of batting are you assuming?

 

[kyear2]

You'd still have a weak tail with Akram tbf. His median score was 11, and Marshall's was 10. That's what they're contributing on a normal day. He went big a couple of times more and Pakistan probably would have lost that game against Zimbabwe without him so it's silly to exclude that double as some people do, but unless he's good enough to bat ahead of the specialist keeper averaging 24 - which I reckon he's not - then I'll go with the clearly better bowler and marginally worse bat here.

I'll also argue that if Marshall was given more responsibility with the bat he'd have done a fair bit better, especially if you told him you didn't even mind if he averaged an extra 1-2 runs per wicket with the ball. Declaration runs in a strong team is a very different role to holding a lower order together, and he was an allrounder at domestic FC level.

I posted a video in one of the other threads and one of the speakers mentioned Malcom's batting, referencing that he was talented but lazy (?). Malcolm had the talent to be around the all rounder level, but it was often not required and batting was sometimes, just time to have a bit of fun.
Just to be clear, not saying he was comparable to Imran in this regard, just he was capable of more than he produced. Just as with Warne in Australia, with stronger batting teams it just isn't always needed as when you're in a weaker one.

 

[kyear2]

What level of batting are you assuming?

With that bowling attack, it doesn't matter.

 

[Mike5181]

Ian Botham before like 1983, otherwise Marshall.

 

[Bolo.]

With that bowling attack, it doesn't matter.

Sure it does. A decent team is going to score 400+ runs in a game pretty often against 4 Mcgraths. If you have a 2000s Bangladesh lineup with 4 Mcgraths you are losing a lot of games. A couple hundred runs from the Pollocks changes the batting significantly.

 

[ankitj]

Pick the best player. Easy.

 

[ankitj]

Which is of course Jadeja.

 

[subshakerz]

Marshall is obviously a better cricketer than Wasim.

The question is you have a bowling allrounder spot available. Likely this will be at no.7 or 8.

Who is the best candidate?

To me, I am much more comfortable with Wasim in that spot. Why? Because he is ATG level in his bowling role unlike Philander, Ashwin and Jadeja while more capable with the bat to hang around than Marshall, though admittedly he is a borderline allrounder.

Marshall is an ideal no.9 onwards, not in an allrounder spot. He is not an allrounder and frankly I suspect his batting is inflated by playing in an all-star team.