Players who went up or down in your judgement after going through their records

[Burgey]

Greg Chappell? What's wrong in his record?

Picked and chose his tours a bit much.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Picked and chose his tours a bit much.

Yeah, and relative to two other ATG australian batsmen (Ponting and Border), he had a shorter career. He wasn't tested in spinning conditions as much (where Ponting's failures are held against him), and didn't tour west indies after their pace attack really came into it's own (which was where Border really stood out above other batsmen). Has an ok but unspectacular record in away Ashes albeit in rather low scoring series.

He scored a mountain of runs against the WI pacers in wsc so he clearly had the ability, but I don't think he has the overall body of work Border and Ponting do.

 

[Prince EWS]

Yeah, and relative to two other ATG australian batsmen (Ponting and Border), he had a shorter career. He wasn't tested in spinning conditions as much (where Ponting's failures are held against him), and didn't tour west indies after their pace attack really came into it's own (which was where Border really stood out above other batsmen).

He scored a mountain of runs against the WI pacers in wsc so he clearly had the ability, but I don't think he has the overall body of work Border and Ponting do.

I give him a bit of slack for longevity because he missed Tests due to WSC, but yeah even if we do that he had a shorter career than Ponting and Border. Comparing players with significantly shorter careers than Ponting but marginally better averages is always dangerous too because there's every chance Ponting's career then contains a contentious segment better than that other player's entire career, with a little bit of "well he was probably still helping the team if he was better than Quiney" at the end.

 

[trundler]

Trueman has gone down in my estimation also. As has Arthur Morris.

 

[The Sean]

Yeah, and relative to two other ATG australian batsmen (Ponting and Border), he had a shorter career. He wasn't tested in spinning conditions as much (where Ponting's failures are held against him), and didn't tour west indies after their pace attack really came into it's own (which was where Border really stood out above other batsmen). Has an ok but unspectacular record in away Ashes albeit in rather low scoring series.

He scored a mountain of runs against the WI pacers in wsc so he clearly had the ability, but I don't think he has the overall body of work Border and Ponting do.

I give him a bit of slack for longevity because he missed Tests due to WSC, but yeah even if we do that he had a shorter career than Ponting and Border. Comparing players with significantly shorter careers than Ponting but marginally better averages is always dangerous too because there's every chance Ponting's career then contains a contentious segment better than that other player's entire career, with a little bit of "well he was probably still helping the team if he was better than Quiney" at the end.

Yeah, I'm a bit torn on Chappell myself. He was a bit unlucky from a "stats against WI" perspective that his peak against them came during WSC - that series he had in the Caribbean in 1979 is one of the greatest batting performances in history IMO. 620 runs against that pace attack all at or not far from their peak was incredible, all the moreso that he was so far clear of any other player on either side. Lloyd and Richards were the next two in line I think and they both scored 300-odd for the series.

The length of his career wasn't too far off what was standard back then - he played Tests for 13 years and retired a few months short of his 36th birthday. That being said, he definitely could have stuck around a bit longer. I am sometimes overly harsh on Ponting for the scale of his decline, but I really admire that by his own admission he probably played on a couple of years too long but continued to make himself available because he felt he could still contribute to the team.

When Chappell retired, he knew that a young and relatively inexperienced side would then be playing their next ten Tests against West Indies - away on tour first, and then back at home. I'd really have respected him taking one for the team like Ponting did and playing on for another year to help Kim Hughes and the boys through it, even if it meant a hit to his Test average.

Then again, I don't think "helping Kim Hughes" was ever particularly high on his agenda.

 

[The Sean]

For balance regarding my post above, I realise of course that Chappell had spoken of the mental exhaustion he felt with the constant schedule of cricket. And that he had considerable (and very lucrative) business interests outside of cricket, which he understandably wanted to devote more time to. So if on that basis Chappell simply decided he'd had enough, then he alone was the best judge of that.

 

[Prince EWS]

For balance regarding my post above, I realise of course that Chappell had spoken of the mental exhaustion he felt with the constant schedule of cricket. And that he had considerable (and very lucrative) business interests outside of cricket, which he understandably wanted to devote more time to. So if on that basis Chappell simply decided he'd had enough, then he alone was the best judge of that.

Yeah if he didn't want to play anymore he was within his rights, but it did make him less useful to his team and therefore less great IMO.

I'm probably a bit hypocritical or at least inconsistent with how highly I rate Chappell as I definitely subconsciously take WSC into account. Not just in giving him a little bit of a boost on longevity for the Tests he missed but also in actually taking his performances into account. I should probably rate Barry Richards, Procter, Lillee and even Grace higher if I do that, to be entirely consistent.

 

[BazBall21]

Did Chappell refuse any tours apart from Ashes 81? The ones that were interrupted by WSC don't really count as the same accusation isn't levelled at other players.

 

[The Sean]

Yeah if he didn't want to play anymore he was within his rights, but it did make him less useful to his team and therefore less great IMO.

I'm probably a bit hypocritical or at least inconsistent with how highly I rate Chappell as I definitely subconsciously take WSC into account. Not just in giving him a little bit of a boost on longevity for the Tests he missed but also in actually taking his performances into account. I should probably rate Barry Richards, Procter, Lillee and even Grace higher if I do that, to be entirely consistent.

He had a huge series against RoW in 1971/72 as well - only played three of the five "Tests" but scored 425 runs at 106.25.

 

[Prince EWS]

He had a huge series against RoW in 1971/72 as well - only played three of the five "Tests" but scored 425 runs at 106.25.

I'd love to have the time to go through and compile a list of records for all players in all those Test-quality non-Tests in that era (Aus v RoW, England v RoW, all WSC SuperTests) and put them in a table, alongside what their Test records would look like if they were all included as Tests.

 

[BazBall21]

Up:
Anwar, May, Kirsten, Gillespie, Kanhai.

Down:
Compton, Hayden, Mahela, Qadir, Trumper.

Reasoning for the last one is Hill was basically his output equal (at least).

 

[Burgey]

Yeah, and relative to two other ATG australian batsmen (Ponting and Border), he had a shorter career. He wasn't tested in spinning conditions as much (where Ponting's failures are held against him), and didn't tour west indies after their pace attack really came into it's own (which was where Border really stood out above other batsmen). Has an ok but unspectacular record in away Ashes albeit in rather low scoring series.

He scored a mountain of runs against the WI pacers in wsc so he clearly had the ability, but I don't think he has the overall body of work Border and Ponting do.

Yeah I think this pretty much sums it up. Haven't got much doubt he'd have done very well in India because he was a great player of spin, but when you comparing him next to guys who actually did and excelled like TOTAB, then I tend to rank him lower.

Should say he had a brilliant WSC tour of the Windies - made 620 runs in 5 Supertests over there against the 4 horsemen plus Wayne Daniel. Lillee was the leading wicket taker for Aus that series with 23, bettered only by Holding with 24.

Looking at the scorecards, the series would have been a ****ing brilliant watch - finished 1-1. Windies smashed Aus in the first test, the second test was abandoned on day 5 due to a riot, but probably would have been drawn anyway, or maybe an Aus win - WI needed 300+ and were 4/130 when the game was called at 2.30pm. Third test Aus won by 24 runs so that was a thriller, fourth was reduced to three days owing to rain and the fifth was the sort of game you didn't see too often vs the Windies in that era - Aus gave up a 200 run 1st innings lead but got to 6/415 when the game was called. Rod Marsh of all people 102 not out.

 

[The Sean]

Did Chappell refuse any tours apart from Ashes 81? The ones that were interrupted by WSC don't really count as the same accusation isn't levelled at other players.

He also skipped the 1982 tour of Pakistan (as did Lillee), though he did tour New Zealand earlier that year.

 

[Prince EWS]

Up:
Anwar, May, Kirsten, Gillespie, Kanhai.

Down:
Compton, Hayden, Mahela, Qadir, Trumper.

Reasoning for the last one is Hill was basically his output equal (at least).

Trumper was better than Hill when he didn't have to open (and Hill never had to open), but awkwardly enough people usually pick him as an opener when he pops up in ATG XIs.

I'm also actually an offender of that but I just don't really rate any of the non-Simpson Aussie openers in the top class so I close my eyes and pretend his bad opening record was a coincidence and that he was just roughly as good as Hill overall instead.

 

[BazBall21]

He also skipped the 1982 tour of Pakistan (as did Lillee), though he did tour New Zealand earlier that year.

Forgot about that. Cheers. I would still take him over Border, Ricky and Waugh.

 

[BazBall21]

Trumper was better than Hill when he didn't have to open (and Hill never had to open), but awkwardly enough people usually pick him as an opener when he pops up in ATG XIs.

I'm also actually an offender of that but I just don't really rate any of the non-Simpson Aussie openers in the top class so I close my eyes and pretend his bad opening record was a coincidence and that he was just roughly as good as Hill overall instead.

Bill Lawry went up in my estimation when I looked at his record in detail. Think he might make my Australian all time XI.

 

[Burgey]

Did Chappell refuse any tours apart from Ashes 81? The ones that were interrupted by WSC don't really count as the same accusation isn't levelled at other players.

I think he missed one to Pakistan in 82/83 as well. Was unavailable for the 79/80 tour of India as no WSC players toured for that one. I wish he had, am pretty confident he'd have gunned it. The bloke was an awesome player of spin.

 

[Burgey]

Bill Lawry went up in my estimation when I looked at his record in detail. Think he might make my Australian all time XI.

Disappointed I can only love this post once. Was a great, great player.

 

[BazBall21]

Disappointed I can only love this post once. Was a great, great player.

Yes. Better than Simpson for me.

 

[Prince EWS]

Bill Lawry went up in my estimation when I looked at his record in detail. Think he might make my Australian all time XI.

Maybe I should just pick Charles Bannerman given we're related.