Marshall vs McGrath vs Hadlee

[Himannv]

1. McGrath
2. Marshall
3. Hadlee
4. Steyn
5. Ambrose

 

[kyear2]

I think if you run the numbers all together (including the effect of much tougher away conditions for Steyn than Marshall), it will end up being a wash. Just can't be bothered doing it myself right now, but I'll concede if someone does and it shows something opposite my intuition.

1. Not everywhere Marshall played away wee not bowling friendly. India was notoriously tough, firstly the dead pitches and also Marshall literally was in tears after his first tour over some decisions against him and wasn't keen on returning. Pakistan was a grave yard for pacers and his approach there was quite different from what it was in India, Australia had Sydney and Adelaide. It wasn't all fun and games.

2. Secondly and most important
Steyn played a comparatively disproportionate hight percentage of games in his favorable home conditions. 52 -37, featuring 22 in Asia (including Bangladesh) and 7 down under.
Marshall played 31 -50, 19 in Asia and 10 in the land of the Aussies.
Speaking of the Bangers, Steyn added in 7 games vs minnows compared to 0 for Marshall.

Your points doesn't add up.

 

[kyear2]

 

[BazBall21]

That off-cutter that skids on

 

[kyear2]

 

[shortpitched713]

1. Not everywhere Marshall played away wee not bowling friendly. India was notoriously tough, firstly the dead pitches and also Marshall literally was in tears after his first tour over some decisions against him and wasn't keen on returning. Pakistan was a grave yard for pacers and his approach there was quite different from what it was in India, Australia had Sydney and Adelaide. It wasn't all fun and games.

2. Secondly and most important
Steyn played a comparatively disproportionate hight percentage of games in his favorable home conditions. 52 -37, featuring 22 in Asia (including Bangladesh) and 7 down under.
Marshall played 31 -50, 19 in Asia and 10 in the land of the Aussies.
Speaking of the Bangers, Steyn added in 7 games vs minnows compared to 0 for Marshall.

Your points doesn't add up.

He played 4 matches in UAE, which was Pakistan's home for that time period. I'll count that as away for him, and it was a place that was even more batting friendly than the predominantly batting friendly conditions of the time. That brings the away total to 41 away for him. Still a bit of a skew, but not too extreme, so I'd say your characterization of Steyn is rather uncharitable here.

 

[kyear2]

He played 4 matches in UAE, which was Pakistan's home for that time period. I'll count that as away for him, and it was a place that was even more batting friendly than the predominantly batting friendly conditions of the time. That brings the away total to 41 away for him. Still a bit of a skew, but not too extreme, so I'd say your characterization of Steyn is rather uncharitable here.

I've literally said I rate Steyn higher than most and he's in my all time team.

You made a point and I countered.

 

[shortpitched713]

I've literally said I rate Steyn higher than most and he's in my all time team.

You made a point and I countered.

Excluding UAE against Pakistan feels like a cheap way to discredit Steyn. In aggregate, the away conditions were harder for Steyn. I'll still contend that, regardless of whichever one sided breakdown you're trying to portray.

And I've already included lack of minnows as a point for Marshall, Ambrose, Hadlee over Steyn, McGrath.

 

[The Sean]

And I've already included lack of minnows as a point for Marshall, Ambrose, Hadlee over Steyn, McGrath.

Which minnows are we talking about for McGrath? I don't think a single Test against Zimbabwe and two against Bangladesh really make a difference, and Ambrose played a couple against Zimbabwe as well (which I also don't think makes a difference).

 

[kyear2]

Excluding UAE against Pakistan feels like a cheap way to discredit Steyn. In aggregate, the away conditions were harder for Steyn. I'll still contend that, regardless of whichever one sided breakdown you're trying to portray.

And I've already included lack of minnows as a point for Marshall, Ambrose, Hadlee over Steyn, McGrath.

I looked at home and away stats, while writing, just didn't see, wasn't trying to discredit anyone. I literally posted that I'm not trying to tear down any of them because all 5 are champions.

But let's be honest, flat is flat. UAE pitches were very unhelpful, but so were the SC pitches during Marshall's time, which you're choosing to skip over. So were some of the pitches in the Caribbean, so were some of the Australian pitches.
I'm not questioning some of the conditions that Steyn faced, I'm saying not everywhere in the '80's were spice decks either. And Marshall adapted to those conditions better than Steyn did.

He isn't even a part of the poll, the only reason we're having this conversation is because you literally asked.

 

[Slifer]

Marshall over Steyn specifically because Maco averages sub 23 vs all comers and sub 25 everywhere. No other bowler has that level of consistency across all comers.

Steyn comes close on the main stats (average, SR etc) but he isn't as consistent across teams; no one else is. And that's my main reason I rate him so highly. Pick a team and he had success vs them.

So the teams back then weren't that strong, at the same time none of them were minnows and playing in Pakistan and India then, was as hard as it is now.