Curtly Ambrose vs Brian Lara

[The Sean]

Barrington's stats are extremely strange. It's as if he improved in line with the quality of bowling, from mediocre in club cricket, to solid in County cricket, to world class in Tests, to a contender for the best ever (Bradman excluded) both against the best Test teams of his time and away from home. To be more specific, Barrington averaged 32.81 in the Minor Counties/Second XI Championship, 36.92 for the British Army, 39.87 in the County Championship, 45.63 in first-class cricket, 58.67 in Tests, 63.96 in Tests against Australia and 69.18 in Tests away from home.

What an extraordinary record. The absolute personification of rising to the challenge.

Always appreciated more than revered as a batsman in his own time, it seems. In his Top Ten cricket book published in 1982, Tom Graveney ranked Barrington at number 1 in the category of "Batsmen to play for my life". But Kenny was nowhere to be found in the ranking of the Top 10 greatest post-war batsmen (despite Graveney picking three Englishmen), and he couldn't even find a spot in the middle order of Graveney's England post-war XI.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

I mean even Bangerz are pretty much better than the Windies these days right.

Yep, we are currently in minnow state or close to...

Like an observer approaching the event horizon of a blackhole.

 

[Slifer]

But harsh to call Headley, Weekes, Sobers and Lara HTBs when they average pretty much 50 away from home. Heck, their away averages are all better than both Lloyd and Kanhai who you highlighted as non HTBs. You really think batsmen should be labelled as HTBs for being successful at home when their away records are perfectly solid? I would call a home track bully someone who failed away from home, like Dave Warner. 47-50 average is hardly a failure.

Very well said.

 

[The Sean]

Weekes' away record is among the most interesting there because it was very much feast or famine, with little in between - his averages in the six away series he played were 111, 56, 24, 20, 83, 19.

 

[BazBall21]

WI were arguably the best team of the 60s weren't they? Barrington had a poor record against the.

His record against quality pace at home really isn't great.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath, Hobbs, Sachin, Sobers,
Gilchrist and the obvious are about the few players no one or hardly no one has an issue with them being in an atg XI , because their records and reputations are functionally spotless. Ok Sobers failed vs NZ, McGrath was so so in Pakistan, Sachin never had a monster series etc but relative to their competition they had minute flaws. Lara is just not quite on that level. He's an atg but he's a coat of varnish below this level. I would have included Viv but then Coronis would've had a aneurysm.....

Lara is a legitimate contender for GOAT Batsman crown ( Bradman excluded )

Ambrose not quite that leval among bowlers.

 

[Slifer]

Lara is a legitimate contender for GOAT Batsman crown ( Bradman excluded )

Ambrose not quite that leval among bowlers.

That's probably a fair statement. Never thought of it this way. But Lara hit some lows Ambrose Never did. In a 13 year career consisting of 25 multiple test series, Ambrose averaged over 30 four times (16% of the times). And his record outside the Caribbean is spotless.

 

[ma1978]

That's probably a fair statement. Never thought of it this way. But Lara hit some lows Ambrose Never did. In a 13 year career consisting of 25 multiple test series, Ambrose averaged over 30 four times (16% of the times). And his record outside the Caribbean is spotless.

but the highs he hit, no one other Bradman has hit. That’s why Lara can credibly make a case for being better thanSachin (i personallysupport Sachin but it’s avery credible case).

 

[Adorable Asshole]

That's probably a fair statement. Never thought of it this way. But Lara hit some lows Ambrose Never did. In a 13 year career consisting of 25 multiple test series, Ambrose averaged over 30 four times (16% of the times). And his record outside the Caribbean is spotless.

No

 

[Slifer]

No

Where did he come up short?

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Where did he come up short?

I won't say short but his record in Asia has an asterik.

 

[Slifer]

I won't say short but his record in Asia has an asterik.

Not going down that road again. But wherever Curtly played he succeeded. Lara cannot say the same.

 

[kyear2]

Ambrose is my 5th and last bowler in my top tier, while I have BCL a layer of paint below the top tier and 7th or 8th overall.

Lara at his best I believe was the absolute best ever, but those dips, ahhh if not for those dips.

CELA for me, but just.

 

[Coronis]

Weekes' away record is among the most interesting there because it was very much feast or famine, with little in between - his averages in the six away series he played were 111, 56, 24, 20, 83, 19.

And lets be real, that 111 and 83 were against India and NZ respectively - both teams which had very poor bowling attacks at the time.

 

[Slifer]

So I was always curious as to why Ambrose seemingly declined after the triumphant Wisden series win in '94 when lo and behold he was burdened by a messed up shoulder that needed surgery. He subsequently missed the 1994 tour to India and only returned in the series vs NZ. He was noticeably a shadow of his former self. And the injuries continued. He missed matches vs England in 1995. Then there was his hamstring issues which caused him to miss the 4th test of the frank Worrell series in 96-97 which wi lost primarily, imo because of his absence. Then there was the shocker in Pakistan where he played the first two tests but missed the last because, yet again he was injured. He missed tests in rsa for similar injury reasons.

I say this all to say that yes, all bowlers are affected by injuries but Amby definitely lost a yard or two after his surgery in "94 hence why he probably wasn't as penetrative.

 

[h_hurricane]

Ambrose and Lara are both top tier ATGs for me for the below reason.
Without them, WI would have declined as early as the beginning of 90s. A lot of mediocre players came into the set up in early 90s and these two (and to a lesser extent Walsh) held the brittle team together for another decade or so, which should give them a lot of respect.
Without 1992-93 and 1998-99 series results against Australians, it would have been a mediocre decade for WI. Oh yes, and SA's comeback test in 1992 too, when Ambrose and Walsh ran through them.

 

[Coronis]

Was he noticeably less penetrative or is this just a myth?

pre shoulder injury:
48 matches 91 innings 219 wickets @ 21.08 SR 53.9 11 5fers

post shoulder injury:
50 matches 88 innings 186 wickets @ 20.88 SR 55.3 11 5fers

Notably all 3 10’fers came pre shoulder injury, before it he averaged 21.6 overs per innings, vs afterwards 20.9 overs per innings. He seems to have bowled slightly less after the shoulder injury - though this could also be due to age later in his career. Interesting misleading stat as well, actually bowling more innings in fewer matches pre injury than post injury.

India and Pakistan were his worst teams overall - its interesting looking at him vs them in his career.

India - 9 matches 15 wickets @ 38.26 (all at home)

Pakistan - 14 matches 42 wickets @ 27.85
Home - 9 matches 27 wickets @ 29.33
Away - 5 matches 15 wickets @ 25.20

Any ideas why he struggled against India/Pak, particularly at home? (especially since across the same period Walsh consistently outperformed him)

 

[Slifer]

Was he noticeably less penetrative or is this just a myth?

pre shoulder injury:
48 matches 91 innings 219 wickets @ 21.08 SR 53.9 11 5fers

post shoulder injury:
50 matches 88 innings 186 wickets @ 20.88 SR 55.3 11 5fers

Notably all 3 10’fers came pre shoulder injury, before it he averaged 21.6 overs per innings, vs afterwards 20.9 overs per innings. He seems to have bowled slightly less after the shoulder injury - though this could also be due to age later in his career. Interesting misleading stat as well, actually bowling more innings in fewer matches pre injury than post injury.

India and Pakistan were his worst teams overall - its interesting looking at him vs them in his career.

India - 9 matches 15 wickets @ 38.26 (all at home)

Pakistan - 14 matches 42 wickets @ 27.85
Home - 9 matches 27 wickets @ 29.33
Away - 5 matches 15 wickets @ 25.20

Any ideas why he struggled against India/Pak, particularly at home? (especially since across the same period Walsh consistently outperformed him)

Fk if I know. Even Bishop outperformed Curtly vs those two teams. Every body just has a bogey team I guess, except if your name is Malcolm Marshall.

 

[The Sean]

Fk if I know. Even Bishop outperformed Curtly vs those two teams. Every body just has a bogey team I guess, except if your name is Malcolm Marshall.

Australia was Marshall's bogey team - he couldn't even average sub-22 against them. Absolute hack.

 

[Slifer]

Australia was Marshall's bogey team - he couldn't even average sub-22 against them. Absolute hack.

Hahahaha....