Curtly Ambrose vs Brian Lara

[Slifer]

I mean even Bangerz are pretty much better than the Windies these days right.

Not saying much but I'm pretty sure WI swept Bangers home and away in their most recent series. Still, WI now are minnow-esque particularly away. Still think they can give any team a good fight at home with the exception of: Australia, India, and RSA.

 

[Slifer]

Hmm maybe I’ve underrated Richards.













Nah.

Haha

 

[Slifer]

I suppose we know from @peterhrt 's insights recently that the Caribbean was the one place that seemed to escape the directive in the 1950s to produce more bowler friendly pitches, so it stands to reason that the West Indies batsmen of that era cashed in a lot more at home. And England didn’t send full strength teams to tour West Indies pre-war, so that goes some way to explain Headley.

Richards and Lloyd in particular come out looking very good, playing their peak years when runscoring wasn't as easy at home and also without any minnow away tours to cash in on.

When Headley played full English teams he did just fine.

 

[The Sean]

On a quick check of some the greatest batsmen for other countries.

For Australia Bradman, Border, Waugh, Harvey and McCabe all average more away, while Greg Chappell is about even. As would be expected given Australian pitches of the 21st Century, the modern greats - Smith, Ponting, Hayden, Clarke - are heavily home skewed. Smith, to be fair, is 64/54 so is awesome either way. Clarke the worst HTB with a 62/39 split.

For England Barrington, Hammond and Hobbs all average much higher away, while we know May and Compton are HTBs. Hutton is about even while Sutcliffe skews home but like Smith is great either way with a 64/56 split. I was a bit surprised by Root averaging more at home than away, given how difficult we perceive batting in England to be.

 

[The Sean]

When Headley played full English teams he did just fine.

Yeah he did, and his twin centuries at Lord's in 1939 were really special. But his two biggest series against England - both at home - were against touring England teams which, while good, weren't what would be considered full strength. And I don't think it's particularly controversial to say that.

 

[subshakerz]

A few reason to rate Lara as first among equals with Ambrose:

- Ambrose was consistent but his actual worldclass phase was only a minority of his career until his shoulder operation in 94. After that he was miserly but not really penetrative.

- Lara faced a lot more pressure with less support than Ambrose in shoring up the WI.

- Lara was a genius and a more rare type of bat.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Lara.
Because,

Lara was Lara league
Ambrose was Ponting league

Or

Lara was Marshall league
Ambrose was Ambrose league

 

[Slifer]

Lara.
Because,

Lara was Lara league
Ambrose was Ponting league

Or

Lara was Marshall league
Ambrose was Ambrose league

Lara is not in the same league as Malcom Marshall.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Lara is not in the same league as Malcom Marshall.

How?

 

[OverratedSanity]

Lara has a more uneven away record because he actually played more in away conditions than Ambrose did. He's in the very top tier of batsmen and Ambrose just a shade below the top tier bowlers for me.

 

[BazBall21]

How?

Nah I think Marshall is clearly better than Lara and Ambrose tbh.

 

[BazBall21]

Lara has a more uneven away record because he actually played more in away conditions than Ambrose did. He's in the very top tier of batsmen and Ambrose just a shade below the top tier bowlers for me.

I agree that Lara is far better in Asia but I think Ambrose is better anywhere outside.

 

[a massive zebra]

Its funny actually, looking at the great West Indies batsmen.

Headley 77.56 home, 47.45 away
Weekes 69.14 home, 49.63 away
Sobers 66.80 home, 50.73 away
Walcott 69.83 home, 40.46 away
Lara 58.65 home, 48.26 away
Chanders 58.36 home, 45.44 away
Richards 49.77 home, 50.50 away
Worrell 55.41 home, 44.90 away
Lloyd 46.46 home, 46.80 away
Kanhai 48.63 home, 46.51 away
Greenidge 48.62 home, 42.22 away

*neutral = away for this list

Big list of HTB’s aside from Richards, Lloyd and Kanhai.

Also random shoutout to Darren Bravo. 26.78 at home, 46.78 away.

But harsh to call Headley, Weekes, Sobers and Lara HTBs when they average pretty much 50 away from home. Heck, their away averages are all better than both Lloyd and Kanhai who you highlighted as non HTBs. You really think batsmen should be labelled as HTBs for being successful at home when their away records are perfectly solid? I would call a home track bully someone who failed away from home, like Dave Warner. 47-50 average is hardly a failure.

 

[ma1978]

I put Lara because of the volume of iconic performances but this is very hard

I thinkAmbrose would have a bigger impact on the fortune of the current Windies team than Lara would, as a counter argument

 

[a massive zebra]

For England Barrington, Hammond and Hobbs all average much higher away

This is technically correct but Hobbs home average of 52 is outstanding for someone who played half his cricket pre WWI. Hammond's home average of 50 is also very respectable.

Barrington's stats are extremely strange. It's as if he improved in line with the quality of bowling, from mediocre in club cricket, to solid in County cricket, to world class in Tests, to a contender for the best ever (Bradman excluded) both against the best Test teams of his time and away from home. To be more specific, Barrington averaged 32.81 in the Minor Counties/Second XI Championship, 36.92 for the British Army, 39.87 in the County Championship, 45.63 in first-class cricket, 58.67 in Tests, 63.96 in Tests against Australia and 69.18 in Tests away from home.

 

[Slifer]

How?

Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath, Hobbs, Sachin, Sobers,
Gilchrist and the obvious are about the few players no one or hardly no one has an issue with them being in an atg XI , because their records and reputations are functionally spotless. Ok Sobers failed vs NZ, McGrath was so so in Pakistan, Sachin never had a monster series etc but relative to their competition they had minute flaws. Lara is just not quite on that level. He's an atg but he's a coat of varnish below this level. I would have included Viv but then Coronis would've had a aneurysm.....

 

[Coronis]

But harsh to call Headley, Weekes, Sobers and Lara HTBs when they average pretty much 50 away from home. Heck, their away averages are all better than both Lloyd and Kanhai who you highlighted as non HTBs. You really think batsmen should be labelled as HTBs for being successful at home when their away records are perfectly solid? I would call a home track bully someone who failed away from home, like Dave Warner. 47-50 average is hardly a failure.

Oh I’m not trying to malign them and call them failures or anything - HTB is just a general term to me for someone who is significantly more productive at home - no insult to those particular players - being able to dominate at home is an important quality too.

This is technically correct but Hobbs home average of 52 is outstanding for someone who played half his cricket pre WWI. Hammond's home average of 50 is also very respectable.

Barrington's stats are extremely strange. It's as if he improved in line with the quality of bowling, from mediocre in club cricket, to solid in County cricket, to world class in Tests, to a contender for the best ever (Bradman excluded) both against the best Test teams of his time and away from home. To be more specific, Barrington averaged 32.81 in the Minor Counties/Second XI Championship, 36.92 for the British Army, 39.87 in the County Championship, 45.63 in first-class cricket, 58.67 in Tests, 63.96 in Tests against Australia and 69.18 in Tests away from home.

Ultimate big time player. Another reason he should be rated higher. Imagine his average in ATG matchups, him and Bradman might even swap places.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath, Hobbs, Sachin, Sobers,
Gilchrist and the obvious are about the few players no one or hardly no one has an issue with them being in an atg XI , because their records and reputations are functionally spotless. Ok Sobers failed vs NZ, McGrath was so so in Pakistan, Sachin never had a monster series etc but relative to their competition they had minute flaws. Lara is just not quite on that level. He's an atg but he's a coat of varnish below this level. I would have included Viv but then Coronis would've had a aneurysm.....

Lara is a better bat than Sachin and Viv. Viv doesn't even makes my AT XI. And Sachin only marginally.

 

[Coronis]

Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath, Hobbs, Sachin, Sobers,
Gilchrist and the obvious are about the few players no one or hardly no one has an issue with them being in an atg XI , because their records and reputations are functionally spotless. Ok Sobers failed vs NZ, McGrath was so so in Pakistan, Sachin never had a monster series etc but relative to their competition they had minute flaws. Lara is just not quite on that level. He's an atg but he's a coat of varnish below this level. I would have included Viv but then Coronis would've had a aneurysm.....

I mean, really I don’t have issues with most players who are chosen in ATG XI’s here. I understand why other people rate certain players higher/lower than I do and thats ok. I have no problem with Viv being in an ATG XI - he was an excellent batsman. There’s like 20 batsman and 10-12 bowlers I can see being chosen for ATG XI’s and me not really giving a ****.

You know what really triggers me tho? When people put Barry Richards in an ATG Test XI.


fwiw Mr. Fantastic is also my least favourite superhero.


I may have issues…

 

[OverratedSanity]

This is technically correct but Hobbs home average of 52 is outstanding for someone who played half his cricket pre WWI. Hammond's home average of 50 is also very respectable.

Barrington's stats are extremely strange. It's as if he improved in line with the quality of bowling, from mediocre in club cricket, to solid in County cricket, to world class in Tests, to a contender for the best ever (Bradman excluded) both against the best Test teams of his time and away from home. To be more specific, Barrington averaged 32.81 in the Minor Counties/Second XI Championship, 36.92 for the British Army, 39.87 in the County Championship, 45.63 in first-class cricket, 58.67 in Tests, 63.96 in Tests against Australia and 69.18 in Tests away from home.

WI were arguably the best team of the 60s weren't they? Barrington had a poor record against the.