The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Coronis]

Surely you jest. Sanga is basically a sandwich.

Never has a career coincided with all the weakest attacks and easiest batting conditions ever. He'd struggle to get a 50 average today. You may know all his stats, but probably lack the context of them. Trust me...I studied this pretender. Have you seen the way he points his finger. WTF?

Not really. Dumbass stat where he gets to cut his teeth in test cricket and get his ****ter patch categorized differently. Anther way to look at it is that he averaged neigh on 67 once the remaining few good bowlers retired. I have no respect for keepers who give up the gloves to pad their stats. You are basically saying Gilchrist was an 80 averaging player if he didn't keep.

Has @Himannv retired and made you his spiritual successor without telling anyone? Or have you been a multi all along? (as I suspected!)

 

[Victor Ian]

Has @Himannv retired and made you his spiritual successor without telling anyone? Or have you been a multi all along? (as I suspected!)

hitman needs some help spreading the truth. I was happy for the pay.

 

[kyear2]

How high can Smith go?

He's already in that pretty consensus top tier after Bradman. In chronological order
Hobbs
Sobers
Richards
Tendulkar
Smith

Which is slightly ahead of that next tier of (again listen chronologically)
Hammond
Hutton
Gavaskar
Lara

To JB and others who says he can still improve his legacy, what would it take for you to really place him undisputably over Hobbs, Tendy, Sobers and Co? I personally don't see it, but ...

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

How high can Smith go?

He's already in that pretty consensus top tier after Bradman. In chronological order
Hobbs
Sobers
Richards
Tendulkar
Smith

Which is slightly ahead of that next tier of (again listen chronologically)
Hammond
Hutton
Gavaskar
Lara

To JB and others who says he can still improve his legacy, what would it take for you to really place him undisputably over Hobbs, Tendy, Sobers and Co? I personally don't see it, but ...

Basic reply buy I think he still needs play for several years longer (very successfully!) to jump clear of the bottom 4 names you listed, let alone everyone in the top group.

 

[Himannv]

Has @Himannv retired and made you his spiritual successor without telling anyone? Or have you been a multi all along? (as I suspected!)

Is it so hard to believe that multiple people feel Sanga is a hack and waste of space? It’s because he is a hack and a prick of the highest order.

 

[Bolo.]

Sorry but still no. Smith still stands out even away from home, in a bowler dominated era. Home conditions being batting friendly is not a major factor in him standing above his peers at all.

If you want an example of what you're suggesting you need to look at the likes of Kane Williamson and Kohli, IIRC those guys average ~20 more at home than they do away.

You're trying real hard to discredit Smith but it's not going to work this way

The conversation is not about his peers though, who he is clearly better than. It's the elites.

Longevity and not factoring a likely late career slump into things, his away record compares pretty favourbly to pretty much anyone in modern cricket. But big numbers impress us. If he had been a South African in his era averaging 55 at home he would be as about as good a player, but we wouldn't be having conversations about clear best after Bradman, cos the numbers are simply not big enough for us on an incomplete and relatively short career. It's just something we do, even those of us who consider it problematic.

 

[Coronis]

How high can Smith go?

He's already in that pretty consensus top tier after Bradman. In chronological order
Hobbs
Sobers
Richards
Tendulkar
Smith

Which is slightly ahead of that next tier of (again listen chronologically)
Hammond
Hutton
Gavaskar
Lara

To JB and others who says he can still improve his legacy, what would it take for you to really place him undisputably over Hobbs, Tendy, Sobers and Co? I personally don't see it, but ...

Lets assume he plays up until the next ashes at least which gives him

3 vs Pakistan in Aus
2 vs Windies in Aus
2 vs NZ in NZ
5 vs India in Aus
2 vs SL in SL
2 vs Windies in WI
5 vs England in Aus

(a total of 23 tests)

Again won’t say this is likely - but IF he was the best batsman in all these series and scoring at least a ton a series (more vs India and England of course), I’d definitely rate him higher and possibly put him above the others below Bradman.

Again - not saying what is likely and only saying what is a possibility.

Some of the posts here seem to be assuming his career is basically over and are also saying whatever he does in the future - good or bad - won’t do anything for his legacy, which is just stupid to me.

Even if say he failed in these and his average drops - it will affect his legacy - despite what he has already achieved.


I remember a discussion not long ago wrt Ponting where some people were saying they rated him exactly where they did prior to his decline (which honestly in most cases I doubt very much). Bringing a modern example to mind, does anyone here rate Kohli as highly in tests as they did back in late 2019/early 2020?

 

[centurymaker]

If he is serious about being top, then he has to tour South Africa, India & England in 2026-2027 (at least 2 out of 3).

South Africa (Sep 2026)
India (Jan 2027)
England (June/July 2027)


Next two years- 21 Tests-
15 tests at home
6 tests away

he is just playing at home (only BG could be competitive). As for away, WI and SL are minnows, so he's only got 2 tests in NZ as his sole tricky away challenge. not enough.

Therefore, instead of retiring in 2025/26, he's got to push it out to 2026/27.

 

[TheJediBrah]

If he is serious about being top, then he has to tour South Africa, India & England in 2026-2027 (at least 2 out of 3).

South Africa (Sep 2026)
India (Jan 2027)
England (June/July 2027)


Next two years- 21 Tests-
15 tests at home
6 tests away

he is just playing at home (only BG could be competitive). As for away, WI and SL are minnows, so he's only got 2 tests in NZ as his sole tricky away challenge. not enough.

Therefore, instead of retiring in 2025/26, he's got to push it out to 2026/27.

Bro SL away is waaaaay more challenging for Aus, and Smith, than NZ

 

[Zinzan]

Not really. Dumbass stat where he gets to cut his teeth in test cricket and get his ****ter patch categorized differently. Anther way to look at it is that he averaged neigh on 67 once the remaining few good bowlers retired. I have no respect for keepers who give up the gloves to pad their stats. You are basically saying Gilchrist was an 80 averaging player if he didn't keep.

Nobody would say that because that'd be absurd.

 

[Zinzan]

You're trying real hard to discredit Smith but it's not going to work this way

I'm really not trying hard but thanks for the compliment none the less.

 

[Zinzan]

Anyway if your point is that he's not a clear no. 2, and never will be no matter what he does, that's absolutely fine and perfectly reasonable.

However I'm just pointing out that the various reasons you are putting forward are not consistent with reality. A good reason would just be to say "not as much longevity as Sachin". Which is an inarguable fact.

Heh Cute little strawman thrown in there but at no point did I say he couldn't be considered no 2 no matter what, I was specifically opining on your hypothetical that he finishes averaging 60.

Re: Longevity I did touch on that in referencing Sachin's, Sanga's & Punter's records after more Tests than Smith has played.

Anyway not sure why you seem to be taking this so personally, it's just a cricketing nerds discussion and I've acknowledged Smith is one of a group of players who a case could be made for them being 2nd to the Don, and maintain that amongst those elites it comes down to personal preference.

 

[Slifer]

Afaic, Smith has nothing left to prove especially not outside Australia. He's made runs vs Anderson and Broad in England, made runs vs Jadeja and Ashwin in India, runs vs Philander, Morkel and Steyn in RSA , runs vs Boult and Southee etc in NZ. Against All teams, he averages 45+ (he averages 30 in 2 only tests vs Bangladesh). In all countries, he averages 40+. He averages 54 away which is more than the other contemporary greats.

That's Sachin level of consistency but more so, he's had more monster series than Sachin vs challenging attacks . I use Sachin because he's imo, the 2nd best after Bradman for now. Some might say Smith didn't face as good attacks and to that I'd say there's no attack from the 90s that was that much better than the combo of Steyn, Philander and Morkel (especially in RSA) and there hasn't been a better spin based attack in my lifetime better than Ashwin and Jadeja especially in India.

That over the next few years, Smith might face less challenges is not unique to him nor should that be held against him if he does well. When all the great bowlers of the 90s retired around the beginning of the 2000s and Pontings, Kallises etc plundered we still gave them their due respect.

 

[Slifer]

If he is serious about being top, then he has to tour South Africa, India & England in 2026-2027 (at least 2 out of 3).

South Africa (Sep 2026)
India (Jan 2027)
England (June/July 2027)


Next two years- 21 Tests-
15 tests at home
6 tests away

he is just playing at home (only BG could be competitive). As for away, WI and SL are minnows, so he's only got 2 tests in NZ as his sole tricky away challenge. not enough.

Therefore, instead of retiring in 2025/26, he's got to push it out to 2026/27.

WI are playing in Australia again??!! WHY ???!!!

 

[centurymaker]

Afaic, Smith has nothing left to prove especially not outside Australia. He's made runs vs Anderson and Broad in England, made runs vs Jadeja and Ashwin in India, runs vs Philander, Morkel and Steyn in RSA , runs vs Boult and Southee etc in NZ. Against All teams, he averages 45+ (he averages 30 in 2 only tests vs Bangladesh). In all countries, he averages 40+. He averages 54 away which is more than the other contemporary greats.

That's Sachin level of consistency but more so, he's had more monster series than Sachin vs challenging attacks . I use Sachin because he's imo, the 2nd best after Bradman for now. Some might say Smith didn't face as good attacks and to that I'd say there's no attack from the 90s that was that much better than the combo of Steyn, Philander and Morkel (especially in RSA) and there hasn't been a better spin based attack in my lifetime better than Ashwin and Jadeja especially in India.

That over the next few years, Smith might face less challenges is not unique to him nor should that be held against him if he does well. When all the great bowlers of the 90s retired around the beginning of the 2000s and Pontings, Kallises etc plundered we still gave them their due respect.

How can we reference averages in countries where he's not even played enough tests..

As you can see below, there's only England where he has played a fair no. of tests. India is barely borderline. Rest are nowhere sufficient!

That's why I am saying he has to play longer to improve his sample size.




Since you are comparing him to Tendulkar, let's take a look below at Tendulkar's sample size-




The more tests you play, the more it will truly represent your entire career, it will capture both your highs and lows and the in-betweens.

So with Steve Smith we really need more data. There's a stark difference in the sample sizes.

 

[Slifer]

How can we reference averages in countries where he's not even played enough tests..

As you can see below, there's only England where he has played a fair no. of tests. India is barely borderline. Rest are nowhere sufficient!

That's why I am saying he has to play longer to improve his sample size.

View attachment 36866


Since you are comparing him to Tendulkar, let's take a look below at Tendulkar's sample size-

View attachment 36867


The more tests you play, the more it will truly represent your entire career, it will capture both your highs and lows and the in-betweens.

So with Steve Smith we really need more data. There's a stark difference in the sample sizes.

Unfortunately, it's a sign of the times. It's not Smith's fault that India, England and Australia choose to play more tests against each other. The good thing about it is, even so, those two teams have outstanding attacks at their respective homes and Smith has done just fine vs them both. And nobody is ever going to play the sheer number of tests Sachin played unless they're from England and start playing relatively early. I would like to see how Smith does in the WI though vs Roach, Seales and Holder with the Duke ball in hand.

 

[Slifer]

WI are playing in Australia again??!! WHY ???!!!

No I'm serious. As if one azz whooping wasn't enough.

 

[centurymaker]

Comparison with guys like Ponting/Kallis, especially Tendulkar is not fair because these players played right the way across different generations.

For example, Ponting & Tendulkar not only played Allan Donald & Pollock but also Steyn & Morkel. It would be like playing Harbhajan & Kumble in their prime and then Ashwin & Jadeja too.

Smith's career didn't really start till 2013. So that's 10 years. Ponting played 17 years, Kallis 18 years (Tendulkar 24 years). It's a whole different challenge to play across generations, facing new generationss of excellent bowlers who are ready to cut you in half. Younger quicker fitter vs ageing great. It is a whole different challenge. It can affect your records as we saw with these greats.

I still remember how Roach hit Ponting on his elbow! He really hurried him up later in Ponting's career. Tendulkar played whole variety of English bowlers over his career then he played Anderson & Broad together in England in his 22nd year and he was below par. His record truly captures both the highs and lows across generations. Smith's likely won't. It would be like dominating a generation and you are done. No further challenges. Still ATG ofcourse but how can he stand out amongst such an elite group of players. One answer only- play longer. Challenge yourself.

 

[kyear2]

Afaic, Smith has nothing left to prove especially not outside Australia. He's made runs vs Anderson and Broad in England, made runs vs Jadeja and Ashwin in India, runs vs Philander, Morkel and Steyn in RSA , runs vs Boult and Southee etc in NZ. Against All teams, he averages 45+ (he averages 30 in 2 only tests vs Bangladesh). In all countries, he averages 40+. He averages 54 away which is more than the other contemporary greats.

That's Sachin level of consistency but more so, he's had more monster series than Sachin vs challenging attacks . I use Sachin because he's imo, the 2nd best after Bradman for now. Some might say Smith didn't face as good attacks and to that I'd say there's no attack from the 90s that was that much better than the combo of Steyn, Philander and Morkel (especially in RSA) and there hasn't been a better spin based attack in my lifetime better than Ashwin and Jadeja especially in India.

That over the next few years, Smith might face less challenges is not unique to him nor should that be held against him if he does well. When all the great bowlers of the 90s retired around the beginning of the 2000s and Pontings, Kallises etc plundered we still gave them their due respect.

While I think the top 5 are really packed close together and it's difficult to separate them, if I had to choose one to lead the group (not be apart from), I think I agree that it has to be Tendulkar. And if it is Tendulkar, it's because of technique, consistency and longevity and if that's part of the reason many others chose the little master, it's difficult to see Smith pass him on that basis.

 

[Slifer]

Comparison with guys like Ponting/Kallis, especially Tendulkar is not fair because these players played right the way across different generations.

For example, Ponting & Tendulkar not only played Allan Donald & Pollock but also Steyn & Morkel. It would be like playing Harbhajan & Kumble in their prime and then Ashwin & Jadeja too.

Smith's career didn't really start till 2013. So that's 10 years. Ponting played 17 years, Kallis 18 years (Tendulkar 24 years). It's a whole different challenge to play across generations, facing new generationsss of excellent bowlers who are ready to cut you in half. Younger quicker fitter vs ageing great. It is a whole different challenge. It's bound to affect your records as we saw with these greats.

I still remember how Roach hit Ponting on his elbow! He really hurried him up later in Ponting's career. Tendulkar played whole variety of English bowlers over his career then he played Anderson & Broad together in England in his 22nd year and he was below par. His record truly captures both the highs and lows across generations. Smith's likely won't. It would be like dominating a generation and you are done. No further challenges. Still ATG ofcourse but how can he stand out amongst such an elite group of players. One answer only- play longer. Challenge yourself.

He can stand out by averaging more than his contemporaries, which he currently does. He can stand out by being the only one who averages 50+ away from home. By comparison the other 3 contenders average at most 46. Smith averages 54. There's more but I'll save that for later.