Kevin Pietersen vs VVS Laxman

[OverratedSanity]

We don't remove Tendulkar and Wasim's career stats their teenage years in these comparisons either.

I do. Because its the objectively correct thing to do.

 

[trundler]

It doesnt because as they point out, he batted down the order more than KP's entire career.

And he was so much better as to make this a no contest.

To be fair that doesn't affect KP's average much simply because he only played four tests against them. He did however fill his boots against a horrendous West Indies side, and yeah Laxman never did much against Ban/Zim unlike most Asian legends of the time.

Yeah my point was KP down hill skiied a whole lot too. He's being made into someone he was not.

 

[subshakerz]

I do when comparing them to guys who had careers half as long. I am fully consistent in this and have argued for this in favour of Colin ****ing Cowdrey. Speak for yourself. And you keep saying it shouldn't be held against VVS but then say it counts.. which doesn't make any sense. You are directly contradicting yourself.

Yeah I am saying that it is fair to say that Laxman belonged in the middle order was wasn't suited to be opener. But those failures still count.

 

[subshakerz]

I do. Because its the objectively correct thing to do.

Well if you do then I give you credit but what point do you statistically begin their careers?

 

[trundler]

Oh 2003 when McWarne was not available? That is peak Australia?

It was better than the sides KP faced post McWarne. And VVS averaged 5 more runs against Australia, I'll remind you. He was better against the best of his time, which is your whole reason for over rating KP. And he had a better record as a middle order batsman and greater longevity and his best was better too.

 

[trundler]

Yeah I am saying that it is fair to say that Laxman belonged in the middle order was wasn't suited to be opener. But those failures still count.

But then you say they shouldn't be used to mark him down. Makes no sense.

 

[Daemon]

It doesnt because as they point out, he batted down the order more than KP's entire career.

KP average batting position 4.17
VVS average batting position 3.65

oh actually VVS wins there too

 

[BazBall21]

Hmmm. I think they count if this was say Graham Gooch or Gary Kirsten vs Laxman. Can't really count Laxman's failures opening against him when it comes to someone who never opened.

 

[BazBall21]

He did also mostly open at the start of his career which reduced his chances of succeeding as an opener, and even though his record in England conveys him as never being the best player against excessive movement, don't think his failures when opening count for much against someone who never really batted top three.

 

[subshakerz]

Anyways, there seems to be very little disagreement on these two points:

- KP was generally more destructive

- KP generally had it slightly tougher up the order, as even Trundler admitted

Whereas there is virtually no agreement on points in favor of Laxman.

 

[BazBall21]

Anyways, there seems to be very little disagreement on these two points:

- KP was generally more destructive

- KP generally had it slightly tougher up the order, as even Trundler admitted

Whereas there is virtually no agreement on points in favor of Laxman.

I don't agree with Trundler that this is a no-contest, but longevity is definitely in favour of Laxman.

 

[trundler]

VVS:

Better against Australia. Doing well against Australia is why subz rates KP.

More ATG knocks including the best knock of all time.

Longer career and better average as middle order batsman.

Less minnow bashing.

KP:

English media hype I guess.

Anyways, there seems to be very little disagreement on these two points:

- KP was generally more destructive

- KP generally had it slightly tougher up the order, as even Trundler admitted

Whereas there is virtually no agreement on points in favor of Laxman.

Haha this is so dishonest. KP has one thing going for him. If we ignore all the reasons why VVS is better KP wins I guess.

 

[subshakerz]

It was better than the sides KP faced post McWarne. And VVS averaged 5 more runs against Australia, I'll remind you. He was better against the best of his time, which is your whole reason for over rating KP. And he had a better record as a middle order batsman and greater longevity and his best was better too.

Laxman faced those sides too in 2007, 2008, 2010 and 2011 and filled his pockets.

Laxman only has one good series against an ATG Australia in 2001 at home.

KP has two long series where he was England's best bat, 10 tests home and away.

Stop making stuff up.

 

[subshakerz]

I don't agree with Trundler that this is a no-contest, but longevity is definitely in favour of Laxman.

In years or games?

 

[BazBall21]

In years or games?

Years.

 

[trundler]

KP was generally more destructive

Also you are shifting goal posts here. You said KP had an extra gear and VVS didn't play counter attacking knocks against great attacks. This was proven false so you have decided to rank KP higher for having a better SR in general.

 

[Coronis]

Why are you like this?

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Look at the reasons given in this thread. Basically it's:

- Laxman sucked as opener so let's not count that part of his record

- That innings of 281

- Laxman had a longer career

Those aren't convincing.

More convincing than peer rating and WSC record.

 

[subshakerz]

VVS:

Better against Australia. Doing well against Australia is why subz rates KP.

More ATG knocks including the best knock of all time.

Longer career and better average as middle order batsman.

Less minnow bashing.

KP is simply more proven against ATG Australia.

You conceded that KP has more classic quality knocks.

You want to claim long career yet exclude his opening year.

KP played 4 tests against Bangladesh. Wow.

 

[trundler]

Laxman faced those sides too in 2007, 2008, 2010 and 2011 and filled his pockets.

Laxman only has one good series against an ATG Australia in 2001 at home.

KP has two long series where he was England's best bat, 10 tests home and away.

Stop making stuff up.

Being England's best bat is dependent as much on the rest of the team. VVS's best against McWarne > KP's best against McWarne. VVS against Australia > KP against Australia. VVS's best > KP's best. VVS's career > KP's career.