Geoff Armstrong- The 100 Greatest Cricketers

[Coronis]

So I have actually decided to buy this, will post the list and compare it to the initial one.

Looking back, he’s done it in 2006, 2009, 2015, 2017 and now 2022.

Is the list in the first post from the 2006 edition or the 2009 edition @Red?

I’ll likely post what any new/upgraded players accomplished in the meantime for clarity sake.

 

[Red]

So I have actually decided to buy this, will post the list and compare it to the initial one.

Looking back, he’s done it in 2006, 2009, 2015, 2017 and now 2022.

Is the list in the first post from the 2006 edition or the 2009 edition @Red?

I’ll likely post what any new/upgraded players accomplished in the meantime for clarity sake.

I think 2006 but it’s in a box in the shed somewhere

 

[Coronis]

Alrighty my book came today.

New players to enter the top 100 (or should I say 99) from the original book - published in 2006 - this updated version is from 2022.

(in order of ranking)

Kumar Sangakkara (2nd XI)
MS Dhoni (4th XI)
AB de Villiers (5th XI)
Hashim Amla (6th XI)
Dale Steyn (7th XI)
Anil Kumble (7th XI)
Graeme Smith (9th XI)

As far as I can tell, the players that have been bumped out are Herbie Taylor, Vijay Hazare, Inzamam-ul-Haq, Andy Flower, Andrew Flintoff, Bill Lockwood and Arthur Mailey.

ftr, Sanga and de Villiers are both chosen in teams with other specialist keepers - so are in as pure batsmen.

Haven’t read the bios yet - Kumble’s inclusion so high surprises me (perhaps more a case of hindsight is 20/20?), Sanga, Dhoni, AB and Amla all higher than I thought, Steyn very underrated and Smith perhaps a bit too.

 

[morgieb]

How on earth is Steyn only in the 7th XI? Should probably be in the 2nd or 3rd one.

 

[Coronis]

In fact these are actually the same 100 cricketers as the last version (2015) apparently - what a cheapskate - I’d feel incredibly ripped if I’d bought the previous version. “I have decided to leave it as is, as a small salute to how the game of my youth once was.”



He talks a lot in the intro about how cricket is not what it once was, spirit of cricket, Mankad, mentions sandpaper gate.

He does however write a “Tenth XI” from the last 7 years:

Sharma
Gayle
Smith
Kohli
Williamson
McCullum+
Shakib
Cummins
Ashwin
Broad
Anderson

He mentions both Warner and Stokes as possible alternates. Warner he specifically marks down for Sandpaper. (mentions it about Smith but obviously agrees his record is way too good to not put him there)

No mention of Root (I’m sure he’d be the next bat on the list but he’s always stuck to his 5 bats, 1 AR, 1 keeper, 4 bowlers format).

Written 1 June 2022

 

[ataraxia]

Chris Gayle in an XI for a period in which he played zero tests.

 

[trundler]

I'm not sure I'd take De Villiers over Inzamam.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

In fact these are actually the same 100 cricketers as the last version (2015) apparently - what a cheapskate - I’d feel incredibly ripped if I’d bought the previous version. “I have decided to leave it as is, as a small salute to how the game of my youth once was.”



He talks a lot in the intro about how cricket is not what it once was, spirit of cricket, Mankad, mentions sandpaper gate.

He does however write a “Tenth XI” from the last 7 years:

Sharma
Gayle
Smith
Kohli
Williamson
McCullum+
Shakib
Cummins
Ashwin
Broad
Anderson

He mentions both Warner and Stokes as possible alternates. Warner he specifically marks down for Sandpaper. (mentions it about Smith but obviously agrees his record is way too good to not put him there)

No mention of Root (I’m sure he’d be the next bat on the list but he’s always stuck to his 5 bats, 1 AR, 1 keeper, 4 bowlers format).

Written 1 June 2022

Apart from filling in as keeper for one test in 2013, McCullum stopped test match keeping in 2010 and stopped playing full stop in 2016. Yet he is the keeper for 2015-2022?!

Where's Watling?

And how did Alistair Cook not get picked? Did he retire too early?

 

[BazBall21]

So it now looks something like...


The first XI- WG Grace, Jack Hobbs, Don Bradman, Sachin Tendulkar, Graeme Pollock, Garry Sobers, Adam Gilchrist, Imran Khan, Malcolm Marshall, Shane Warne and Sydney Barnes.



The second XI- Len Hutton, Victor Trumper, Viv Richards, Wally Hammond, Kumar Sangakkara, Ian Botham, Alan Knott, Richard Hadlee, Dennis Lillee, Fred Spofforth, and Muttiah Muralitharan.



The third XI- Sunil Gavaskar, Herbert Sutcliffe, George Headley, Brian Lara, Greg Chappell, Kapil Dev, Wasim Akram, Jack Blackham, George Lohmann, Bill O'Reilly and Glenn McGrath.



The fourth XI- Archie MacLaren, Frank Worrell, Everton Weekes, Allan Border, Steve Waugh, Keith Miller, MS Dhoni, Wilfred Rhodes, Alan Davidson, Jim Laker and Curtly Ambrose.



The fifth XI- Barry Richards, Clyde Walcott, Ricky Ponting, Jacques Kallis, KS Ranjitsinhji, De Villiers, Richie Benaud, Godfrey Evans, Ray Lindwall, Fred Trueman and Alec Bedser.



The sixth XI- Arthur Shrewsbury, Geoff Boycott, Rahul Dravid, Hashim Amla, Denis Compton, Frank Woolley, Syed Kirmani, Harold Larwood, Joel Garner, Bishan Bedi and Bhagwat Chandrasekhar.



The seventh XI- Bob Simpson, Virender Sehwag, Charlie Macartney, Denis Compton, Javed Miandad, Les Ames, Monty Noble, Anil Kumble, Andy Roberts, Michael Holding and Dale Steyn.



The eighth XI- Matthew Hayden, Graham Gooch, Rohan Kanhai, Neil Harvey, Ken Barrington, Peter May, Wasim Bari, Johnny Briggs, Fazal Mahmood, Charlie Turner, and Waqar Younis.



The ninth XI- Stan McCabe, Graeme Smith, Billy Murdoch, Clem Hill, Clive Lloyd, Dudley Nourse, Ian Healy, John Snow, Hugh Trumble, Jeff Thomson and Tom Richardson.


Have guessed that Kallis has been bumped up, and surprised if he has placed Sangakkara ahead of Lara. Could be making Sanga open instead.

 

[Coronis]

Will be posting the XI’s (and actual #ranking out of 100) when I get home from work.

 

[Coronis]

Aight, so in ranking order:

First XI
Bradman, Grace, Sobers, Warne, Imran, Hobbs, Marshall, Tendulkar, Barnes, Gilchrist, Pollock

Second XI
Lillee, Richards, Hadlee, Hammond, Sangakkara, Spofforth, Hutton, Botham, Trumper, Knott, Muralitharan

Third XI
Lara, Gavaskar, Chappell, O’Reilly, Worrell, Wasim, Kallis, Lohmann, Blackham, McGrath, Sutcliffe

Fourth XI
Kapil, Headley, Weekes, Walcott, Davidson, Dhoni, Border, Rhodes, Ambrose, Laker, MacLaren

Fifth XI
Miller, Evans, Waugh, Compton, Lindwall, de Villiers, Benaud, Trueman, Richards, Shrewsbury, Bedser

Sixth XI
Woolley, Ponting, Larwood, Ranji, Kirmani, Amla, Garner, Boycott, Bedi, Chandrasekhar, Sehwag

Seventh XI
Miandad, Procter, Dravid, Macartney, Steyn, Roberts, Holding, Simpson, Kumble, Ames, Hayden

Eighth XI
Harvey, Turner, Barrington, Noble, Briggs, Kanhai, Bari, Snow, Waqar, Gooch, Murdoch

Ninth XI
Hill, Healy, Nourse, Trumble, May, McCabe, Fazal, Lloyd, Richardson, Thomson, Smith

and of course Walters is his favourite player at 100.

A note to make on players such as Dhoni and AB - he has always said that short format success itself was not enough for inclusion, but players such as Tendulkar, Wasim and Garner improved their rankings because of their ODI exploits.

He considered (in 2015) including Gale and McCullum based on their outstanding T20 impact alongside test records but did not end up doing so.

 

[peterhrt]

A lot to take in here. First impressions.

It is good to see some proper wicket-keepers who don't always receive their due: Blackham, Kirmani, Wasim Bari. On the other hand, arguably the finest Australian and English keepers have been excluded: Oldfield, Tallon, Bob Taylor.

Geoff Armstrong is Australian and some of his omissions reflect performance in or against Australia: Donald, Shaun Pollock, Faulkner (as a bowler), Root, Greenidge. He appears to have responded to feedback from previous versions and has made several changes.

111 cricketers have been selected in total. 90 are from Australia (32), England (30), West Indies (15) and India (13), with only 21 from the other five main Test-playing countries combined. This is too wide a discrepancy. Pakistan, New Zealand and Sri Lanka get only one batsman each. There are no specialist spinners from West Indies, South Africa, Pakistan or New Zealand.

The Test figures of English bowlers against Australia up to 1890 and South Africa until 1896 should be largely discounted. With the odd exception, their opponents' batting had not yet developed to English first-class standard and was a long way short of international calibre. Australia sometimes managed to narrow the gap in batting with superior bowling, fielding and wicket-keeping, aided by some poor pitches.

These English bowlers can only be properly assessed against English batsmen in first-class cricket. On this basis Lohmann was still a great bowler but he is on a par with contemporary Charlie Turner, not five teams ahead of him. Briggs is nowhere near the Top 100 cricketers.

 

[ankitj]

Love seeing Graeme Pollock in first xi.

 

[BazBall21]

Pollock, Donald, Crowe, Greenidge each almighty omissions.

 

[BazBall21]

The Amla love is interesting. Big fan of him personally. Think he got a harsh deal in his decline coinciding with the start of the 'pace pandemic'. The role conditions play in longevity is generally under-estimated.

 

[Coronis]

The Amla love is interesting. Big fan of him personally. Think he got a harsh deal in his decline coinciding with the start of the 'pace pandemic'. The role conditions play in longevity is generally under-estimated.

In the bios for Sanga, Dhoni, AB and Amla he specifically stresses their ODI performances, leading one to think they’ve been given much greater weight than other past players. Perhaps also this explains why Steyn’s ranking is relatively low - his lack of performance in the shorter forms.

Pollock, Donald, Crowe, Greenidge each almighty omissions.

Don’t forget Grum.

Something I found interesting, in his intro where he talks about “enormous tenacity and durability rather than greatness” when talking about Harbhajan and Lyon, he goes on to similarly mention Walsh, Donald (of all people!) and Johnson, implying that Wes Hall, Jack Gregory and Graeme McKenzie were harder to leave out. Something I may have heard people say similar things about Pollock but never Donald.

Also interesting is he says to not fall into a trap of picking players because it has become “fashionable” to rate them highly. Specifically mentioning he rates Morris > Ponsford, Mailey > Grimmett and Oldfield > Tallon. One of these comparisons is really not like the others….

 

[Bolo.]

Sixth XI
Woolley, Ponting, Larwood, Ranji, Kirmani, Amla, Garner, Boycott, Bedi, Chandrasekhar, Sehwag

Seventh XI
Miandad, Procter, Dravid, Macartney, Steyn, Roberts, Holding, Simpson, Kumble, Ames, Hayden

 

[ataraxia]

The Test figures of English bowlers against Australia up to 1890 and South Africa until 1896 should be largely discounted. With the odd exception, their opponents' batting had not yet developed to English first-class standard and was a long way short of international calibre. Australia sometimes managed to narrow the gap in batting with superior bowling, fielding and wicket-keeping, aided by some poor pitches.

Good point overall (and informative as ever), but in terms of SA I think the date should be extended until possibly 1930. I guess all the all-rounders might make up for it somewhat, but there were some terrible specialist batters being picked. Not to belittle Faulkner, AW Nourse, Zulch, Taylor, etc. of course.

 

[peterhrt]

Good point overall (and informative as ever), but in terms of SA I think the date should be extended until possibly 1930. I guess all the all-rounders might make up for it somewhat, but there were some terrible specialist batters being picked. Not to belittle Faulkner, AW Nourse, Zulch, Taylor, etc. of course.

There is logic to a 1930 date as the first-ever Test in South Africa on a grass wicket started on 1 January 1931. Herbie Taylor averaged 47 on matting and 32 on turf pitches.

Obviously Barnes would take a hit. But he still has most English Ashes wickets in Australia, at a healthy average of 22 and 5.9 wickets per match.

 

[The Sean]

Hugh Trumble (or at least his descendants) is loving this idea, because his figures actually improve - Trumble's one Test against South Africa produced figures of 0/127!

Johnny Briggs, however...not so much.