How will this series measure up to Ashes 2005?

[flibbertyjibber]

Australia under Cummins yeah overall is better than England 2005 but likely loses in England. Nothing really insane about that opinion.

The same Cummins Australia that scraped a 1-0 win in Pakistan and a few weeks later England won 3-0. Oh right.

 

[Ashes81]

From Australia it was only really Warne, barring some spells from Lee and McGrath. Also plenty of drops in 2005 too.

This series, Broad, Starc, Woods, and occasionally Cummins, have bowled tremendously well.

So McGrath only bowled well in spells but Australia would have won the Ashes if he wasn't injured.

Make your mind up mate, which is it.

 

[GIMH]

Which England players from now get in that 05 side?

Bairstow does, despite his woes. Root walks in. Brook of now V KP in 05 is not as easy as you might first think.

Wood over Harmison? Broad over Hoggard for sure.

The team balance makes it hard to do like for like - Fletched loved multi-faceted cricketers though so I could see him finding room for Moeen, and Woakes.

Stokes V Flintoff? Right here right now you’d have to say Freddie of 05 wouldn’t you.

 

[sledger]

Yeah 05 Freddie > Stokes, because this was the version of Freddie that could both bat and bowl to an extremely high level. But Stokes > most other incarnations of Freddie imo, because for most of his career after 05 his batting was barely above Stuart Broad level, and before 2003 Freddie's bowling was nothing special at all.

Though tbh Freddie would get into the current team as an out and out bowler.

 

[sledger]

Hoggard also quite underrated imo. Was actually a much better bowler than Harmison in a lot of ways I would say. Harmison a bit of a cricketing Dele Alli imo. Good in bursts and key moments, but on the whole pretty pap and unproductive.

 

[Uppercut]

I get that you desperately want to avoid going in with no spinner but picking 2023 Moeen or 2005 Giles over Woakes in England is seriously pushing the boundaries of good taste.

 

[subshakerz]

The same Cummins Australia that scraped a 1-0 win in Pakistan and a few weeks later England won 3-0. Oh right.

The fact that Cummins got a result on those pitches is a credit to him.

So McGrath only bowled well in spells but Australia would have won the Ashes if he wasn't injured.

Make your mind up mate, which is it.

Yes So McGrath only bowled well in spells, basically the 1st test, but Australia would have won the Ashes if he wasn't injured

 

[subshakerz]

Which England players from now get in that 05 side?

Bairstow does, despite his woes. Root walks in. Brook of now V KP in 05 is not as easy as you might first think.

Wood over Harmison? Broad over Hoggard for sure.

The team balance makes it hard to do like for like - Fletched loved multi-faceted cricketers though so I could see him finding room for Moeen, and Woakes.

Stokes V Flintoff? Right here right now you’d have to say Freddie of 05 wouldn’t you.

Lol in other words most of the apparently average current team likely walk into the supposedly great 2005 English team.

Final lineup looks like:

Strauss
Trescothick
Vaughn
Root
Brook or KP
Flintoff
Bairstow
Moeen
Woakes
Broad
Jones or Wood

And that is if we assume that we won't fit in someone like Stokes along with Flintoff, which we honestly would.

It seems nostalgia is really at play here in hyping up the 2005 team.

 

[GIMH]

Lol in other words most of the apparently average current team walk into the supposedly great 2005 English team.

Root and Broad walk in. There are a few where it’s closer. And tbh, if Anderson’s dip is just a blip, then he walks in too.

The best English team of my time watching cricket is the 2010-11 version. If you had Flintoff or Stokes in there it addresses its main weakness.

 

[subshakerz]

Root and Broad walk in. There are a few where it’s closer. And tbh, if Anderson’s dip is just a blip, then he walks in too.

The best English team of my time watching cricket is the 2010-11 version. If you had Flintoff or Stokes in there it addresses its main weakness.

I agree about the 2010-11 team. Strong in-form batting lineup and Swann as a worldclass spinner made a difference.

The 2005 England team is being presented as unfairly superior to the current team IMO.

 

[loterry1994]

Don’t think any future series can top 2005 ashes. But this has been a very good series so far that’s gone down to the wire all tests and swing in momentum so many times. I put bets on sports every now and then. And the way the odds have fluctuated during these tests is crazy.

 

[Nas207]

Not as high quality cricket. Drama wise, it could get close if England win the next one

 

[wpdavid]

Lol in other words most of the apparently average current team likely walk into the supposedly great 2005 English team.

Final lineup looks like:

Strauss
Trescothick
Vaughan
Root
Brook or KP
Flintoff
Bairstow
Moeen
Woakes
Broad
Jones or Wood

And that is if we assume that we won't fit in someone like Stokes along with Flintoff, which we honestly would.

It seems nostalgia is really at play here in hyping up the 2005 team.

It might be your final lineup mate, but it wouldn't be mine. Geraint Jones was far from perfect, but Bairstow's been a different level of poor in this series. Giles gets roundly trashed by lots of folks, but he was superior to the 2023 version of Moeen. Remember Alderman tastefully suggesting that any Australian batsman being dismissed by Giles should hang themselves? Good job they didn't take him at his word or a whole generation would gave been wiped out that summer. Hoggard's probably superior to Woakes (sorry RIS),bearing in mind the latter has only had to bowl in helpful conditions against a batting line-up mostly inferior to the 2005 version. And Wood's had one good innings so far. Let's see how he goes at Old Trafford and The Oval before parachuting him into the side. So that's:
Strauss, Trescothick, Vaughan, Root, Brook/KP (if you must but I'd probably play Stokes at 5), Flintoff, G. Jones, Giles, Hoggard, Broad and S. Jones.

In my opinion, anyway. Others will differ, including your good self. So lets not pretend that it's as clear cut as you're suggesting.

 

[Yeoman]

We have had three fine, fluctuating matches with close results. None however has been as close as Edgbaston or Old Trafford in 2005. 2005 also had added significance from an English perspective that Australia had won the previous eight series.

 

[GIMH]

Geraint dropped a fair few without the batting ceiling of Jonny. Don’t see the argument for him frankly.

If Woakes isn’t ahead of Hoggard then a fit Jimmy definitely is.

 

[wpdavid]

Geraint dropped a fair few without the batting ceiling of Jonny. Don’t see the argument for him frankly.

If Woakes isn’t ahead of Hoggard then a fit Jimmy definitely is.

Nah, I feel like being contrary about this, even if I will wonder why in the morning.

I know that Geraint missed a fair few across the series as a whole, and it would be interesting to know how many. There must be some way of finding out without scrolling through cricinfo's commentaries from 2005. But I don't remember it being close to as many as Bairstow has missed in only three tests to date. I could be wrong of course, it was a very long time ago. But I don't remember such widespread calls for Chris Read in the same way as we're hearing for Foakes this summer. And we haven't seen much sign of Bairstow's higher batting ceiling so far this summer, although that could change over the next two tests to be fair. To date, he doesn't look as if he's recovered from the time lost due to his injury, and that's what we're looking at this summer, irrespective of what happened 12 months ago.

Woakes vs Hoggard vs Anderson is fun. Before the series, it's not even a discussion of course. But now it feels different, and I know that's really just down to the one test at Lord's. Is he actually unfit? I thought he had been dropped for the last test. Being slightly over the hill (if that's what he is) isn't an injury. Let's see how Jimmy goes at Old Trafford, as we all know he'll probably play there. Mind you, if he isn't picked, then maybe Stokes & BMac aren't convinced by the summer of 2023 version. And I do think that Hoggard is a bit under-rated, arguably with a more to his name in 2005 than Woakes so far in this series. I suppose I'm swayed by Hoggard being absolutely at the peak of his powers in 2005, unlike the other two. But again, if Woakes does the business at OT and The Oval, then I'll reconsider.

 

[Nas207]

It might be your final lineup mate, but it wouldn't be mine. Geraint Jones was far from perfect, but Bairstow's been a different level of poor in this series. Giles gets roundly trashed by lots of folks, but he was superior to the 2023 version of Moeen. Remember Alderman tastefully suggesting that any Australian batsman being dismissed by Giles should hang themselves? Good job they didn't take him at his word or a whole generation would gave been wiped out that summer. Hoggard's probably superior to Woakes (sorry RIS),bearing in mind the latter has only had to bowl in helpful conditions against a batting line-up mostly inferior to the 2005 version. And Wood's had one good innings so far. Let's see how he goes at Old Trafford and The Oval before parachuting him into the side. So that's:
Strauss, Trescothick, Vaughan, Root, Brook/KP (if you must but I'd probably play Stokes at 5), Flintoff, G. Jones, Giles, Hoggard, Broad and S. Jones.

In my opinion, anyway. Others will differ, including your good self. So lets not pretend that it's as clear cut as you're suggesting.

If we are just comparing 05 to today Hoģgard > anderson/woakes, Flintoff > Broad, Jones > robinson Giles > Mo (his batting especially) Harmison = Wood

 

[GIMH]

Nah, I feel like being contrary about this, even if I will wonder why in the morning.

I know that Geraint missed a fair few across the series as a whole, and it would be interesting to know how many. There must be some way of finding out without scrolling through cricinfo's commentaries from 2005. But I don't remember it being close to as many as Bairstow has missed in only three tests to date. I could be wrong of course, it was a very long time ago. But I don't remember such widespread calls for Chris Read in the same way as we're hearing for Foakes this summer. And we haven't seen much sign of Bairstow's higher batting ceiling so far this summer, although that could change over the next two tests to be fair. To date, he doesn't look as if he's recovered from the time lost due to his injury, and that's what we're looking at this summer, irrespective of what happened 12 months ago.

Woakes vs Hoggard vs Anderson is fun. Before the series, it's not even a discussion of course. But now it feels different, and I know that's really just down to the one test at Lord's. Is he actually unfit? I thought he had been dropped for the last test. Being slightly over the hill (if that's what he is) isn't an injury. Let's see how Jimmy goes at Old Trafford, as we all know he'll probably play there. Mind you, if he isn't picked, then maybe Stokes & BMac aren't convinced by the summer of 2023 version. And I do think that Hoggard is a bit under-rated, arguably with a more to his name in 2005 than Woakes so far in this series. I suppose I'm swayed by Hoggard being absolutely at the peak of his powers in 2005, unlike the other two. But again, if Woakes does the business at OT and The Oval, then I'll reconsider.

Agree on the lack of YJB ceiling in this series but we know it’s there which is the key difference.

I like Hoggard, he was a cracker for us and would have averaged less in a later era. But Woakes record in England speaks for itself really and Anderson/Broad have been far superior. If he’d come up in their era would he have played half as many Tests? I’d have to say no

 

[centurymaker]

Strauss
Trescothick
Vaughan
Root
KP
Stokes
Flintoff
G. Jones/Bairstow
Hoggard/Wood
Broad
Jones


2005 vs 2023
It's 7 vs 4 players (min. 6 v 5 if you include wood/woakes etc)

 

[Socerer 01]

Strauss
Trescothick
Vaughan
Root
KP
Stokes
Flintoff
G. Jones/Bairstow
Hoggard/Wood
Broad
Jones


2005 vs 2023
It's 7 vs 4 players (min. 6 v 5 if you include wood/woakes etc)

Flintoff as the 4th bowler with no spinner and Jones in there? bold strategy cotton