Does Ben Foakes have a legitimate case for Test selection?

[Brook's side]

Below are the England test wicket keepers since the 1990s.

In an effort to provide some useful illumination I've split them into 2 lists.

People are welcome to comment on and/or discuss the 2 separate lists should they wish to do so.

Russell
Rhodes
Hegg
Read
Foster
Foakes

Stewart
Blakey
Jones
Prior
Ambrose
Bairstow
Buttler
Pope
Bracey
Billings

If it's possible though for people not to come at me in response to the lists, like I've reported their pet dog to the council as being a menace to the neighbourhood, that would be brilliant.

This post supersedes my original post.

 

[Prince EWS]

Below are the England test wicket keepers since the 1990s.

In an effort to provide some useful illumination I've split them into 2 lists.

People are welcome to comment on and/or discuss the 2 separate lists should they wish to do so.

Russell
Rhodes
Hegg
Read
Foster
Foakes

Stewart
Blakey
Jones
Prior
Ambrose
Bairstow
Buttler
Pope
Bracey
Billings

If it's possible though for people not to come at me in response to the lists, like I've reported their pet dog to the council as being a menace to the neighbourhood, that would be brilliant.

This post supersedes my original post.

You absolute ****ing ****. I can't believe you've done this.

 

[Brook's side]

You absolute ****ing ****. I can't believe you've done this.

wtf????????????

 

[Brook's side]

Maybe I was being a bit over sensitive btw?

Apologies for any misjudgement.

I may also have put Warren Hegg in the wrong list.

 

[Ali TT]

A bit of semantics going on here, a "specialist" keeper doesn't mean they have to be crap with the bat, nor does it mean they don't keep wicket at lower levels.

I think it's more to do with who they're keeping out the side or being compared to. There is no doubt that Foakes is a far better gloveman than YJB........but the latter is by far the better batsmen. If it was a 1 on 1 choice here (it isn't cos Crawley can gtfo) then you're choosing between the specialist keeper or the specialist bat.

The fact that Bairstow keeps wicket for Yorkshire or has done since high school is irrelevant.

But that means he's always been a wicketkeeper and not a "specialist bat". So the choice between him and Foakes is between one wicket-keeping all-rounder who is a better bat and another wicket-keeping all-rounder who is a better keeper.

You are right that it is somewhat semantics but I've seen so much garbage written about this harking back to some mythical time when keepers were selected purely on their glovework. Foakes has a first class average of 39, he could easily be selected for England as a specialist bat. Read and Foster had FC averages of 37 and 36 - if they'd averaged low 20s then they'd struggled to keep down country contracts for very long, no matter how tidy their keeping.

 

[Brook's side]

Corrected list.

Glovemen:
Russell
Rhodes
Read
Foster
Foakes

Batsmen/Keepers:
Stewart
Blakey
Hegg
Jones
Prior
Ambrose
Bairstow
Buttler
Pope
Bracey
Billings

 

[mr_mister]

Warren Hegg should have played 100 tests

 

[Blenkinsop]

The only ones in the list that aren't specialist keepers are Stewart, Bairstow, Pope and, arguably, Buttler (I don't know about Blakey).

How are Billings and Bracey not specialist keepers? They both keep for their first-class side and AFAIK have always done so. Same with Jones, Ambrose, Hegg and Prior. And Buttler only moved to Lancashire because Somerset decided to give Keiswetter the gloves.

Certainly some of them were selected for England over better keepers because of their batting, but that doesn't make them not specialist keepers.

 

[Brook's side]

All the great wicket keepers - or at least great English wicketkeepers - are of a similar size and build:

Godfrey Evans
Bob Taylor
Alan Knott
Jack Russell
Ben Foakes

Wirey, short asses.

All highly flexible and dextrous.

None of the wicket keeper batsman fit the bill (although Stewart isn't far off), highly talented though they were and highly skilled though they each became.

Look at all of the above and you'd say they were born to be wearing wicket keeper pads and gloves. Look at James Bracey wearing such gear, and if you didn't know better you might place a bet that he was wearing a halloween costume.

All of those listed above would probably have become (and certainly could have become) first class cricketers, even if they couldn't hold a bat.

Would any of the players I've listed as wicket keeper batsmen have become first class cricketers if they hadn't been able to bat? Almost certainly not (apart possibly from Stewart). Their primary skill was batting.

 

[trundler]

Foakes is gun but he's not the best gloveman in the world. His keeping seems to get a little overrated because he's supposed to be keeper first but he's been sloppy at times. Decent but not great. Definitely should be picked tho.

 

[Blenkinsop]

All the great wicket keepers - or at least great English wicketkeepers - are of a similar size and build:

Godfrey Evans
Bob Taylor
Alan Knott
Jack Russell
Ben Foakes

Wirey, short asses.

Ben Foakes is 6'1" tall.

 

[Ali TT]

All the great wicket keepers - or at least great English wicketkeepers - are of a similar size and build:

Godfrey Evans
Bob Taylor
Alan Knott
Jack Russell
Ben Foakes

Wirey, short asses.

All highly flexible and dextrous.

None of the wicket keeper batsman fit the bill (although Stewart isn't far off), highly talented though they were and highly skilled though they each became.

Look at all of the above and you'd say they were born to be wearing wicket keeper pads and gloves. Look at James Bracey wearing such gear, and if you didn't know better you might place a bet that he was wearing a halloween costume.

All of those listed above would probably have become (and certainly could have become) first class cricketers, even if they couldn't hold a bat.

Would any of the players I've listed as wicket keeper batsmen have become first class cricketers if they hadn't been able to bat? Almost certainly not (apart possibly from Stewart). Their primary skill was batting.

I don't know about Russell or earlier but no way Foakes has a first class career, or at least a sustained one if he averages less than 25, in the present day.

 

[slowfinger]

A bit of semantics going on here, a "specialist" keeper doesn't mean they have to be crap with the bat, nor does it mean they don't keep wicket at lower levels.

I think it's more to do with who they're keeping out the side or being compared to. There is no doubt that Foakes is a far better gloveman than YJB........but the latter is by far the better batsmen. If it was a 1 on 1 choice here (it isn't cos Crawley can gtfo) then you're choosing between the specialist keeper or the specialist bat.

The fact that Bairstow keeps wicket for Yorkshire or has done since high school is irrelevant.

Well can Crawley GTFO? He's tonned up in the latest CC round. His team has completely collapsed around him too.

 

[slowfinger]

Speaking of which Foakes has tonned up too. in 91 balls would you believe. doesn't make this selection any easier does it.

 

[slowfinger]

Personally I wouldn't drop Foakes because we have enough 'specialist' batsman from 1-6. Bairstow still comes in but it's either Pope or Crawley that have to budge. And Pope didn't particularly impress in this round of County Championship games either, more 20's and 30's.

If Pope doesn't start getting big big runs then I don't think his place can be justified for too much longer if I'm honest.

 

[Brook's side]

Ben Foakes is 6'1" tall.

6 1 is probably the upper limit, but he's exceptionally bendy. Otherwise the perfect physicality.

Unlike most of the wicket keeper batsman, looks like a wicket keeper through and through.

Charlie Chaplin would probably have been a natural gloveman, other things being equal (unlike the likes of Billings).

 

[The Sean]

All the great wicket keepers - or at least great English wicketkeepers - are of a similar size and build:

Godfrey Evans
Bob Taylor
Alan Knott
Jack Russell
Ben Foakes

Wirey, short asses.

In no photo I've ever seen of Godfrey Evans could he be described as "wiry" - he's always looked very stocky to me.

 

[Brook's side]

In no photo I've ever seen of Godfrey Evans could he be described as "wiry" - he's always looked very stocky to me.

Redirect Notice

images.app.goo.gl

 

[The Sean]

Redirect Notice

images.app.goo.gl

Yep, I've seen that one. And plenty of others. He's stocky, not wiry. Profiles of Evans even describe him as such.

 

[Brook's side]

Anyway, if people don't get the difference between natural gloveman keepers and batsmen keepers it's fine, and I'm not going to lose sleep (specifically) over that fact.