*Official* Australia in India 2023

[Xix2565]

Not necessarily. Depends on the local conditions.

By that I mean the normal conditions, not manufactured conditions.



* The Poms are still cheating ****s though.

Pitches don't sprout up out of the ground fully formed to either help movement off the surface or nullify it, and seam movement is off the surface not in the air (which is swing). Don't mistake the two to be the same. It's as manufactured as turning wickets, given that England used to have good spinners in the past but not anymore.

That's nonsense mate - it's much more to do with the climate.

Ian Chappell once said in England when you win the toss, you look up not down, to decide whether to bat or not and he's right.

Numbers don't lie though.

Broad and Anderson's numbers on ball by ball era (pre Bazball) grouped by amount of movement detected and the balls/wickets/average/SR for each group. Note how effective increasing seam movement is vs swing. To pretend that this is completely beyond the control of the curators and only in the hands of the weather gods is bizarre.

 

[Prince EWS]

Even ignoring the overhead the conditions I think it has more to do with the Dukes ball than the pitches.

 

[Xix2565]

Even ignoring the overhead the conditions I think it has more to do with the Dukes ball than the pitches.

How are balls so different that only one type can produce seam movement unlike others? And it's not like it's impossible to get some seam movement in other places like India and Australia either tbf, and they don't use the Dukes.

There's also this old CricViz tweet noting an increase in seam movement in England from 2017-2019.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1154737620875976704

 

[OverratedSanity]

Made up numbers lol

 

[Sunil1z]

England are massive pitch doctorers . See bowling average of spinners in Ashes 2019 and IND-ENG 2021 series . Leach played only 1 Test in 2021 series and averaged 100. So you won’t find his name in the 2nd list. When Aus tours, they try to have dry wickets and when India tours you will hardly find dry wickets .

 

[trundler]

England are massive pitch doctorers . See bowling average of spinners in Ashes 2019 and IND-ENG 2021 series . Leach played only 1 Test in 2021 series and averaged 100. So you won’t find his name in the 2nd list. When Aus tours, they try to have dry wickets and when India tours you will hardly find dry wickets .

Every notable post War English spinner has had pitches doctored to suit him and nerf the touring pacers in a home Ashes series. Laker's 19fa came on an obviously doctored wicket after England lost the previous test on a more typical wicket, Swann had the same luxury in 2013 and most infamous of all, Underwood once got to cash in on a pitch with mould on it.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/rewind-when-laker-skittled-the-aussies-897043

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/rewind-the-fungus-that-floored-the-aussies-901241

Tailored pitch reveals England's Ashes anxiety

There's been plenty of rain in England this summer, but you wouldn't know it from the 22 yards in the centre of Trent Bridge. A wicket that was the traditional home of English pace bowling now resembles something from the maidans of Mumbai.

www.smh.com.au

 

[Sunil1z]

Anderson admits pitch doctoring in 2015 Ashes

 

[Ashes81]

England are massive pitch doctorers . See bowling average of spinners in Ashes 2019 and IND-ENG 2021 series . Leach played only 1 Test in 2021 series and averaged 100. So you won’t find his name in the 2nd list. When Aus tours, they try to have dry wickets and when India tours you will hardly find dry wickets .

You can believe what you want mate and if I thought we doctored pitches on a regular basis, I'd say so.

The climate is so variable in Britain, last week here it was snowing and below freezing. Next week it could 15 degrees warmer - and that massively impacts the pitches that groundsmen can produce.

On top of that we use the Dukes ball which seams more than the Kookaburra as the seam stays 'proud' for longer.

Even if we did doctor the pitches so what?

India have got an excellent seam attack so if there is help there for seamers it benefits them as much as it would England or are you saying our seamers are better .

 

[Sunil1z]

There is nothing wrong with pitch doctoring imo unless it is dangerous for the batsmen to play or there is huge uneven bounce.

And yes England seamers are better than India . Anderson, Broad , Robinson and Archer is a very good pace attack.

 

[Ashes81]

It also depends when the test matches are played in England.

We had a phase a few years back of starting in May, often at Chester-le-Street. I've been to tests there in May and it's really cold.

We've largely stopped that but now the last test are starting in September - again it can be pretty chilly.

All this impacts the pitch and how much the ball moves and swings

 

[Starfighter]

How are balls so different that only one type can produce seam movement unlike others?

Are you that ignorant? It's hardly a secret that the Dukes ball has a larger, higher seam. Quite naturally that will produce more seam movement.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Pitches don't sprout up out of the ground fully formed to either help movement off the surface or nullify it, and seam movement is off the surface not in the air (which is swing). Don't mistake the two to be the same. It's as manufactured as turning wickets, given that England used to have good spinners in the past but not anymore.


Numbers don't lie though.

Broad and Anderson's numbers on ball by ball era (pre Bazball) grouped by amount of movement detected and the balls/wickets/average/SR for each group. Note how effective increasing seam movement is vs swing. To pretend that this is completely beyond the control of the curators and only in the hands of the weather gods is bizarre.

I know what seam is. I don't think you understand how local conditions affect how pitches behave though.

 

[Xix2565]

Are you that ignorant? It's hardly a secret that the Dukes ball has a larger, higher seam. Quite naturally that will produce more seam movement.

Same can be said of getting pitches to aid that more. Especially when the Dukes hasn't changed a lot.

I know what seam is. I don't think you understand how local conditions affect how pitches behave though.

England hasn't drastically changed to go from favouring producing one type of bowler to another. Or you could look at how New Zealand went about things recently. Didn't need the weather to change to make better batting surfaces.

 

[Xix2565]

The Ahmedabad pitch has been rated poor and the BCCI has appealed - how could they not after Rawalpindi?

Wasn't it for the Indore pitch?

 

[silentstriker]

I do think the gap between the sides is nowhere near as big as the final result suggests. The batting from Aus was mostly abject of course but they really could and should have restricted India to a far lower score, both through bowling to their actual standard more often and doing the simple task of holding their ****ing catches. Those Jadeja and Shami drops were absolutely brutal, both scorecard wise and for mentality.

I think the problem is that, in Indian conditions, there is a gap between the sides that’s in every position and in every situation. In many cases, the individual gap isn’t large but because it’s there top to bottom, it becomes huge in aggregate and makes Australia have to play exceptional (and/or large amount of luck and 50/50 calls go their way) while india have to play well below standard for Australia to win. It’s like in Chess, the way Hikaru Nakamura describes his play vs Carlsen is that Magnus just does everything a little better (a little better at openings, a little better at tactics, moderately better at endgames etc), making it very difficult to win overall - essentially Hikaru has to play perfectly and Magnus has to blunder. Hikaru may be overrating his abilities there, I have no idea - I suck at chess - but just as an analogy.

@Spark, so I think you were right and I was wrong. The sides truly are close even in Indian conditions. I thought that India were ahead in every category, even if marginally, making it difficult for Australia to win - but you are right - there is a small gap in the sides.

 

[CricAddict]

@Spark, so I think you were right and I was wrong. The sides truly are close even in Indian conditions. I thought that India were ahead in every category, even if marginally, making it difficult for Australia to win - but you are right - there is a small gap in the sides.

Yes, the gap between India, England and Australia is not much right now. Anyone can win over anyone, though India is ahead by a very tiny margin since it has been quite some time since Eng/Aus won a series over India.

 

[the big bambino]

India are way ahead due to them being competitive away and close to invincible at home. Australia did well to get so close but no matter how you look at it India is always beating us in India and will continue to do so until we prepare players for their conditions.

 

[Shri]

delhi type pitch is the best template to beat everyone who tours here for tests. makes it so that spinners who just drop the ball on a spot can be dealt with eventually by home batters while home bowlers can dismantle opposition line ups. rank turners like indore makes **** spinners seem better than they really are and takes away home advantage. marginal turn plus invariable bounce off a fullish good length is best for india

 

[Shri]

Kuhnemann leaves India after 'awesome tips' from Jadeja

"He was really nice, and just said any time to reach out and even sent me a message on Instagram, so that was pretty cool"

www.espncricinfo.com

 

[Burgey]

Cummins staying home for the odi leg. Smith to captain.