Which pacers would you rank ahead of Murali and Warne as bowlers?

[subshakerz]

Warne/ Murali aren’t better than atleast Marshall and McGrath . About rest it is debatable.

If McGrath the you would likely add Hadlee.

 

[271 & 16/166]

Marshall ahead of all, ask any batsman of his era

 

[ankitj]

Marshall ahead of all, ask any batsman of his era

That can be said of Akram too fwiw.

 

[Socerer 01]

peer ratings are always likely to be heavily skewed by how good one player was when playing against the other rather than how good said player was for the most part

 

[h_hurricane]

Marshall
Hadlee
Mcgrath
Ambrose
Steyn
Garner
Donald

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Barnes
Steyn
McGrath
Hadlee
Marshall
Lillee

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Murali's lack of success in Australia, and Warne's record in India are problematic.

Hence to McGrath/Marshall/Hadlee/Imran/Steyn/Ambrose are all better. They wouldn't suck in particular countries that bad.

Sri Lanka is the only place other than Pakistan where Imran has great stats though (av 18) and it was only 3 tests and they were real minnows.

Australia - 28.5
England - 24.6
India - 28
NZ - 26.6
WI - 25.1

These are very good stats (especially in the Windies), but not better than the 2 great spinners. For instance, Warne averaged under 22 in England and Murali averaged 19.2! Those are crazy stats.

I think Imran was a better cricketer than W & M, but not a better bowler. I think Garner was a better bowler than Imran too.

 

[Coronis]

Murali in Australia should downgrade him against a few IMO.

I don’t think Murali should necessarily get a “pass” for Australia, but tbf to him..

His first series in 95, he really hadn’t come into his own as a great bowler then. (was averaging 30 odd after 21 matches). His second series in 07, seems to have clearly not been on any spin friendly pitches, MacGill averaging 65 in that one. Keep in mind as well they were both 2 test series. Anyway I don’t hold such a small portion of his career against him as much as some others seem to.

For me Warne and Murali are definitely among that top tier with the pacers, I’d probably end up with 3 pacers and them as my top 5 bowlers.

 

[trundler]

Sri Lanka is the only place other than Pakistan where Imran has great stats though (av 18) and it was only 3 tests and they were real minnows.

Australia - 28.5
England - 24.6
India - 28
NZ - 26.6
WI - 25.1

These are very good stats (especially in the Windies), but not better than the 2 great spinners. For instance, Warne averaged under 22 in England and Murali averaged 19.2! Those are crazy stats.

I think Imran was a better cricketer than W & M, but not a better bowler. I think Garner was a better bowler than Imran too.

This is a fundamentally bad analysis but 100% what Subshakerz deserves so kudos

 

[Shady Slim]

@subshakerz here with an admirable go at trojan horsing a warne v murali thread in to cricket chat.

if someone says they rate x bowler ahead of murali but not warne the subtext is they rate murali higher than warne to which another poster can jump in and say no they rate that bowler higher than warne though not murali - it is an excellent ruse.

 

[BazBall21]

Marshall, McGrath definitely.

Hadlee, Barnes probably.

For years I rated Warne over Murali but increasingly unsure now. Being 100% objective, Warne's record against the very best players of spin is somewhat dodgy and rating him over Hadlee without subjectivity is feeling increasingly out there. A few other pacers after that you could argue for.

 

[subshakerz]

Sri Lanka is the only place other than Pakistan where Imran has great stats though (av 18) and it was only 3 tests and they were real minnows.

Australia - 28.5
England - 24.6
India - 28
NZ - 26.6
WI - 25.1

These are very good stats (especially in the Windies), but not better than the 2 great spinners. For instance, Warne averaged under 22 in England and Murali averaged 19.2! Those are crazy stats.

I think Imran was a better cricketer than W & M, but not a better bowler. I think Garner was a better bowler than Imran too.

Not convinced. Imran has a pretty even spread, and much of that is impacted by the time late career when he was a pure bat. And in all those countries, except maybe NZ, he had at least one genuinely great series.

I think for Murali you have to figure that his stats in Australia and India, the best batting sides, are pretty horrible. Warne also is horrible in India and WI (and decent in Pakistan). Neither of them even had a good series in these countries. They were outright failures.

 

[BazBall21]

Imran was immense against the best team of his era too.

 

[subshakerz]

I don’t think Murali should necessarily get a “pass” for Australia, but tbf to him..

His first series in 95, he really hadn’t come into his own as a great bowler then. (was averaging 30 odd after 21 matches). His second series in 07, seems to have clearly not been on any spin friendly pitches, MacGill averaging 65 in that one. Keep in mind as well they were both 2 test series. Anyway I don’t hold such a small portion of his career against him as much as some others seem to.

For me Warne and Murali are definitely among that top tier with the pacers, I’d probably end up with 3 pacers and them as my top 5 bowlers.

I hear you, but then we should give the same context to other pacers too. IK for example wasn't much of anything when he had his first series in England.

 

[BazBall21]

He went clubbing with Ijaz Ahmed in Leeds though

 

[Godard]

Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee over Warne and Murali both, Imran and Steyn above Murali. Ambrose tied with Murali.
Overall:
Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee
Warne
Imran
Steyn
Ambrose/Murali

 

[Godard]

Warne I’d place marginally above Murali, since his home matches were far less spin conducive than Murali’s(outside that, they have an even home/away record). I would also slightly place Warne above Imran(and Imran above Murali).

 

[BazBall21]

Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee over Warne and Murali both, Imran and Steyn above Murali. Ambrose tied with Murali.
Overall:
Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee
Warne
Imran
Steyn
Ambrose/Murali

I rate that list but would probably shift Ambrose/Murali between Warne and Imran and then I’d completely agree.

 

[Godard]

I rate that list but would probably shift Ambrose/Murali between Warne and Imran and then I’d completely agree.

I generally rate Warne, Steyn and Imran over Murali/Ambrose for having more compete home away records with success in SC, or in Warne’s case bowling in less helpful home pitches.

 

[Slifer]

Marshall, Hadlee, Glenn, Ambrose, Imran, Steyn for me. The likes of Donald, Garner are also debatable.