Slifer
International Captain
No. You can't be an atg spinner with so many question marks outside Asia. If Warne had averaged 30+ outside Australia, I'd be saying the same. Ditto Murali.
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Sub-25 Bowling Average - Current players
- Thread starter CricAddict
- Start date
CricAddict
Cricketer Of The Year
Do you think Cummins is an ATG? Cummins averages 30+ in India, Srilanka and Bangladesh, 3 countries that favor spin.
Slifer
International Captain
He averaged under 25 overall outside Australia. He won Australia a series in Pakistan.
Even Murali and Warne had issues in specific countries. Warne: India and WI, Murali: India and Australia. But overall, both averaged well below 30 outside their respective homes. And no matter what, both were always in their teams XI when they traveled overseas. If/when Jadeja/Ashwin can get their average under 30 away, then we can talk. Spinners get a little more leeway for me, than pacemen.
Senile Sentry
International Debutant
Pakistan isn't a spin predominant country.
Averaging outside is a misnomer as you could still get to play a big handful vs Eng and SA and NZ that are conducive to fast bowling.
CricAddict
Cricketer Of The Year
Similarly, Ashwin and Jadeja each have 2 bogey countries as well.
Except England and NZ, Jadeja averages 25 or less in all other countries.
Except Australia and SA, Ashwin averages 28 or less in all other countries.
Both being in the team XI is not a fair consideration. Like I have said multiple times before, pitches were prepared to aid zero spin against India. So only 1 of them could play as India had to play 3-4 pacers in the team. Warne and Murali had no such competition.
Ashwin-Jadeja missing out is similar to Colin Croft and other fearsome pacers missing out due to Marshall-Roberts-Holding-Garner. If that team played India right now in these pitches, no way they will play 4 pacers. Garner missing out from the team in India will not make him not an ATG.
Slifer
International Captain
Still Murali and Warne average 25 and 27 away respectively. Ashwin 31 and Jadeja 34. Ashwin is on the cusp, get it under 30 and he's set. Ditto Jadeja. And with respect, both Murali and Warne bowled to significantly stronger batting teams imo.
Howe_zat
Audio File
What are these guys meant to do? Literally just be Shane Warne? Warne was exceptional, okay, fine. There are other ways to be exceptional.
Let's look at what spin bowling in the current era actually is. Lyon and Maharaj are the most successful and prolific spinners outside Asia over the last decade and they've both got averages over 30 while doing so. Moeen Ali is the only other one with 100+ wickets and he pays 33 runs for them, with Leach being the one other secure spinner for a big team and he's going for 38. Yasir Shah, Santner and Mehidy Hasan are in the 40s and everyone else either has a handful of tests or doesn't play any more.
Being amonst the best spinners in the world outside of Asia while being absolutely devasting within, for a solid decade, is as good as anyone's ever done. They've won a ****load of tests and made quality batters from all around the world look foolish and been the cornerstone of India having the best attack they've ever had by miles.
What more do people want? Why is getting the number into the right column more important, or impressive? Why do people want that?
Let's look at what spin bowling in the current era actually is. Lyon and Maharaj are the most successful and prolific spinners outside Asia over the last decade and they've both got averages over 30 while doing so. Moeen Ali is the only other one with 100+ wickets and he pays 33 runs for them, with Leach being the one other secure spinner for a big team and he's going for 38. Yasir Shah, Santner and Mehidy Hasan are in the 40s and everyone else either has a handful of tests or doesn't play any more.
Being amonst the best spinners in the world outside of Asia while being absolutely devasting within, for a solid decade, is as good as anyone's ever done. They've won a ****load of tests and made quality batters from all around the world look foolish and been the cornerstone of India having the best attack they've ever had by miles.
What more do people want? Why is getting the number into the right column more important, or impressive? Why do people want that?
Slifer
International Captain
Wi bowlers generally missed out for a myriad of reasons: injury, banned, island politics etc. They weren't overlooked because they were considered a liability overseas. If India were so confident in Ashwin and Jadeja away, then they should play them in tandem more. But they don't.
Fwiw, I'm pretty much sold on Ashwin being an atg or close to it. 31 for a spinner outside India isn't bad and he's improving. 34 in the case of Jadeja isn't. Look how much crap we give Philander for example and he averaged 28 outside RSA.
h_hurricane
International Vice-Captain
I think you have a decent point on the overall away stats. Ashwin and Jadeja getting dropped for each other didn't help their case in getting used to the overseas conditions earlier in their career though. Still, I think they both are nailed to go down as ATGs as overall packages, if not just as bowlers.
An interesting stat, though I am not concluding anything out of it.
Averages against non minnows,
Jadeja : 23.95 (excluding BD and AFG)
Ashwin : 23.98 (excluding BD and AFG)
Murali : 24.87 (excluding BD and Zim)
Warne : 25.40 (excluding BD and Zim)
Even among quicks, Imran (24.00 excluding SL) and Waqar (25.16 excluding BD and Zim) have a marginally worse average.
Slifer
International Captain
Now do the away stats.
Victor Ian
International Coach
I don't think now 25 is the same as previous 25. Who has calculated the adjustment factor of drs? Pitc-es help too, but that is something that has just reverted ba'k from the roads days. Is there a numerical increase in lbw's that can be converted to +- so many runs?
h_hurricane
International Vice-Captain
Do I need to, since I already mentioned that I am not concluding anything out of it
On a more serious note, what it says that they have it against the best available teams, and it is a point in their favor.
Slifer
International Captain
They've done it vs the best teams at home, which with all due respect isn't unlike other contemporary bowlers: Rabada, Anderson, Philander, Broad etc.Do I need to, since I already mentioned that I am not concluding anything out of it
On a more serious note, what it says that they have it against the best available teams, and it is a point in their favor.
It's for that reason I rate Bumrah so highly. He's unstoppable home and away and he's who has (imo) turned India into a great team.
Howe_zat
Audio File
Well to have a quick look at the figures, my first thought was to compare the period after neutral umpires became a thing in the 90s but before DRS in roughly 2010 (obviously it wasn't introduced the same everywhere, but I remember the 2009 Ashes being one of the last series without it for England). Turned out that the proportion was exactly the same. So bowlers don't actually get more lbws as a result of DRS.
1990-2009: 4203 lbws out of 24905 dismissals (16.9%)
2010 onwards: 2970 out of 17617 (16.9%).
Broad averages 26 at home. Needs to stop being clubbed with people who are literally unstoppable at home.
Slifer
International Captain
My mistake.
Slifer
International Captain
So I looked over Jadeja's record again and it really isn't half bad outside of India. He just hasn't played enough outside of Asia and the one place where he's played a decent number of tests (England) he's been pretty bad. Which kinda throws off his overall away record. I'll leave it there.
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
They have different strengths. Usually Ash is better in RSA and Eng and Jaddu is better in NZ and Aus as far as SENA teams are concerned.
I have been saying Jaddu and Ash should play together with our top 3 seamers away from home since 2014 now.
Indian bowlers' averages in away Tests. Qualification: 50 wickets.
22 - Bumrah
25 - Irfan Pathan
28 - Gupte
30 - Shami
31 - Zaheer Khan, Ashwin
32 - Chandrasekhar, Kapil Dev, Ishant Sharma
33 - Prasanna, Bedi, Srinath
34 - Jadeja
35 - Kumble
36 - Venkatesh Prasad, Sreesanth
37 - Umesh Yadav
38 - Harbhajan
39 - Prabhakar
42 - Mankad, Shastri
44 - Venkataraghavan
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
The real curious one there is Umesh Yadav. 