Curtly Ambrose vs Dale Steyn

[OverratedSanity]

Not everyone. Waugh didn't but he doesn't get the time of day on this board.

Runs after number 4 are farzi runs

 

[Zinzan]

Curty no 3 of all time for me;

My top 5 pacers;

Marshall
Hadlee
Ambrose
McGrath
Steyn

 

[Coronis]

Yes but his home numbers are still inflated as with Labu'.

You don’t seem to understand the definition of inflated

 

[ankitj]

Not everyone. Waugh didn't but he doesn't get the time of day on this board.

Waugh did well against Ambrose but we figured Ambrose didn't do well against SA and didn't play much in subcontinent. So is Ambrose even that good? And by extension is Waugh even that good?

 

[Bolo.]

I'm sure this has been discussed plenty but what's the forum's general view of Steyn's home pitch advantage, seeing how SA pitches never really flattened out relative to other parts of the world in the concerned time period?

I think most people are aware of the difference between his home and away pitches when it comes to assessing quicks. I've read many comments on CW over the years trying to big him up by highlighting his away record specifically, but I can't remember anyone ever doing it based on his home record specifically.

 

[trundler]

I think most people are aware of the difference between his home and away pitches when it comes to assessing quicks. I've read many comments on CW over the years trying to big him up by highlighting his away record specifically, but I can't remember anyone ever doing it based on his home record specifically.

Subconsciously, everyone takes note of Steyn's home conditions. He was the #1 bowler for the longest span and well clear of whoever is #2 but he's not rated as a lone wolf in the most batting friendly era ever precisely because of his spicy home conditions.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Nope, Kallis scored well against the Ambrose and Walsh in 98 at home.

His home numbers are a very good stat but CW isn't consistent for giving credit to home players, rather they hype up Sehwag and Jadeja based on home numbers in their conditions of choice, ignore Steyn's home advantage but knock Anderson for being a home bully, treat Labu' s record as inflated based on his home runs yet give Smith a pass for them, then bash Imran and Waqar for their Pakistan records pointing out the difference with away average.

The difference is all those players won their teams a a **** ton of games by being godly at home

 

[Coronis]

Steyn’s record in England surprises me, was he injured, or flat pitches, or just had a couple of below average series there for no reason?

Still managed 23 wickets over 5 tests, but 30+ average was surprising.

 

[Sunil1z]

Steyn’s record in England surprises me, was he injured, or flat pitches, or just had a couple of below average series there for no reason?

Still managed 23 wickets over 5 tests, but 30+ average was surprising.

Extremely flat pitches.
Check bowling average of Anderson/Broad in those matches

 

[peterhrt]

Steyn was said not to be as effective against left-handers and apparently averaged over thirty against them in Tests. Mickey Arthur raised the point with the Sydney Morning Herald in 2012 when Australia's coach. Link below.

Australia banking on left-handers to blunt Steyn's pace and swing

Sydney, Nov 6 (ANI): Australia's coach Mickey Arthur has put down the selection of Rob Quiney, a third left hander at the top of the order, in place of the injured Shane Watson for the Gabba Test, to the fact that South African pace spearhead Dale Steyn hasn't bowled well to left-handers.

www.yahoo.com

This does not appear to account for Steyn's indifferent record in England. The home team fielded several left-handers but it was Pietersen and Bell who enjoyed most success against him. With his long reach, Pietersen targeted Steyn's fuller length.

 

[Bolo.]

Steyn’s record in England surprises me, was he injured, or flat pitches, or just had a couple of below average series there for no reason?

Still managed 23 wickets over 5 tests, but 30+ average was surprising.

Played on pancakes against very strong batting line ups. He also wasn't very good at controlling the duke. England suits bowlers who nibble it more.

His averages were mostly pretty irrelevant to game results though, with RSA only being bowled out twice in a match on one occasion. In the 3 games where he took a bunch, RSA won, and in the 2 where he didn't, it was a draw. Philander averaged 6 less than him in 2012, but everyone watching thought Steyn did a better and more important job.

 

[trundler]

Played on pancakes against very strong batting line ups. He also wasn't very good at controlling the duke. England suits bowlers who nibble it more.

His averages were mostly pretty irrelevant to game results though, with RSA only being bowled out twice in a match on one occasion. In the 3 games where he took a bunch, RSA won, and in the 2 where he didn't, it was a draw. Philander averaged 6 less than him in 2012, but everyone watching thought Steyn did a better and more important job.

Unfortunately >30 counts as a hole in his career.

 

[Coronis]

Unfortunately >30 counts as a hole in his career.

I never said it was a hole, I said it was a surprise and asked for context, which I now have.

 

[trundler]

I never said it was a hole, I said it was a surprise and asked for context, which I now have.

It gets brought up as a supposed hole from time to time when he actually won SA matches in England and did much better than the opposition bowlers. One of the more annoying examples of checklist posting gone wrong.

 

[subshakerz]

It gets brought up as a supposed hole from time to time when he actually won SA matches in England and did much better than the opposition bowlers. One of the more annoying examples of checklist posting gone wrong.

It's only a relatively small hole when comparing to other top tier ATGs who had much better records in England and Australia.

 

[subshakerz]

Subconsciously, everyone takes note of Steyn's home conditions. He was the #1 bowler for the longest span and well clear of whoever is #2 but he's not rated as a lone wolf in the most batting friendly era ever precisely because of his spicy home conditions.

No, they don't, because the common trope on CW, even this thread, is that Steyn succeeded in a tough bowling era as if he overcame unusually bad conditions, ignoring where he played most of his matches.

 

[trundler]

It's only a relatively small hole when comparing to other top tier ATGs who had much better records in England and Australia.

C O N T E X T
O
N
T
E
X
T

 

[subshakerz]

C O N T E X T
O
N
T
E
X
T

Even with context, playing in a bowling friendly era and against maybe easier opponents, I would take Ambrose's record in Australia and England over Steyn's. Steyn did win games but was unusually expensive and knocked around in these two countries.

 

[trundler]

Even with context, playing in a bowling friendly era and against maybe easier opponents, I would take Ambrose's record in Australia and England over Steyn's.

Comparing them in England is futile because they played teams of such vastly different qualities. Ambrose is the GOAT touring bowler in Australia but then Steyn is on a different level in Asia.

 

[subshakerz]

Comparing them in England is futile because they played teams of such vastly different qualities. Ambrose is the GOAT touring bowler in Australia but then Steyn is on a different level in Asia.

Yeah, I have been reviewing my own arguments in this thread, and I am beginning to reconsider my original position.

I now think that Steyn > Ambrose.