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The legacy of Steve Smith

Coronis

International Coach
But no one is placing any of those in Smith’s league are they?
Thats not the point for ****s sake. The point is you calling a 60.89 average “massively massively” inflated by a 64.51 home average. Which either means a) You don’t know what massively means, or b) You’re a moron, or c) all of the above.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Are wickets in Australia any more conducive to batting than India? That's news to me.
Definitely was the case in the mid-2010s. Never thought I would see a Pakistan bat like Azhar Ali score a double ton in Australia or Pakistan nearly chase 500.

This last decade perhaps I see Australia as a more difficult place for opposition bowlers to succeed than India.
 

_00_deathscar

International Regular
Thats not the point for ****s sake. The point is you calling a 60.89 average “massively massively” inflated by a 64.51 home average. Which either means a) You don’t know what massively means, or b) You’re a moron, or c) all of the above.
Once again, in comparison to the contemporaries we’re ACTUALLY rating him against, ie not Joe Root and Virat Kohli cos he’s so far ahead of those he can’t even see them in his rear view mirror, his overall average is propped up significantly BECAUSE of his massively inflated home average.

Because people immediately start pointing to his 60+ overall average. But that’s not what puts him in the same class as Sachin and Lara who have a far lesser average. That’s what I’m saying is a bit of a misdirection.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Because people immediately start pointing to his 60+ overall average. But that’s not what puts him in the same class as Sachin and Lara who have a far lesser average. That’s what I’m saying is a bit of a misdirection.
It kind of does. Even knowing he has a home inflation, it is pretty hard to ignore 60 plus average over nearly 100 tests. Even in the 2000s flat bat era, guys werent doing that, except for Ponting briefly.
 

Ashes81

State Vice-Captain
I think too much is being made about averages of certain players being 'inflated' by this factor and that factor.

In cricketing terms, I 'hate' Smith. He plays for our biggest rivals and has scored an absolute shed load of runs against us.

But his record is exceptional by whatever means you want to measure it by and no amount of trying to pick holes in it changes that.
 

Ashes81

State Vice-Captain
I think we all accept his greatness at this point.

But I do see Tendulkar, Lara and others averaging near 60 if they played in similar conditions as Smith at home, that's all. That is the inflation I am talking about.
At the moment Smith averages about 7 more than both Sachin and Lara but both, particularly Sachin, scored alot more runs than Smith.

As such you can make the argument that Sachin is the better player but I don't think the way to do that is to try to pick holes in Smiths record.

I loved watching Tendulkar bat, if I could play like any batsmen, it would be him.

What makes Sachin so great for me is this longevity but also the pressure he played under, being Indian.

I remember Shane Warne being asked who he rated higher - Tendulkar or Lara. He couldn't split them apart from the pressure Tendulkar had on him compared to Lara. Warne said unless you've been to India and witnessed it, you couldn't appreciate what it's like to be Sachin Tendular - Lara and Smith don't have that.

I think Smith will always out perform Lara and Tendulkar statistically, not by much but by enough.

However, I would argue that you can make a valid case, but not necessarily a conclusive one, for Tendulkar being the better player due to his longevity and the unprecedented scrutiny.and pressure that he was subject to.
 

_00_deathscar

International Regular
It kind of does. Even knowing he has a home inflation, it is pretty hard to ignore 60 plus average over nearly 100 tests. Even in the 2000s flat bat era, guys werent doing that, except for Ponting briefly.
But that's what's really pushing his average up above 60 though (again, please don't make me use the caveat of where I think he sits as a player).

To give you an example, noted home track bully Jaya only average a shade under 60 at home. Sanga average just a shade above 60 at home. Still a big difference from 64.

Sanga came close to the 60 mark (58.94 in his 122nd test) and I believe Ponting did actually cross it (by having a 10+ difference in average at home) at one point.

My basic point is that too much is made of the 60+ average. On top of that, I do think Smith has a way to go - he's not yet at 100 tests. These guys played 130, 140, 150 etc tests - obviously with Sachin playing an insane 200+.

I know he's far better than Kohli, but you only have to point to players like him, or even Ponting, Sachin etc to see how your average can collapse pretty hard very, very quickly the more tests you play.

I don't know what the arbitrary point would be for me to rate him the CLEAR second best bat - I don't think there is one (unless he goes up another gear from here). If he were to retire here, or with ~100-120 tests with an average close to or just above 60 (but not 62+ or something), I'd consider him in that same level as the ones I mentioned earlier, but given the difference in tests (at this point in time Sachin has played 2x the tests Smith has) that would still be difficult to rate him as the clear 2nd best.

As I said, if he goes up a gear from here if he has that in him, then yea he's the clear second best.

It is obvious he's a very unique player in many ways though - he does seem to combine the monstrous series Lara had with the consistency of Sachin.
 

Slifer

International Captain
What I'm also deducing from this Smith is only great because he pads at home is that. Cummins is then in a completely higher category than McGrath, Steyn Wasim, Ambrose etc. Starc is probably better than James Anderson seeing that he's had to bowl mostly on Aus roads and James bowled under the clouds in England.
 

_00_deathscar

International Regular
What I'm also deducing from this Smith is only great because he pads at home is that. Cummins is then in a completely higher category than McGrath, Steyn Wasim, Ambrose etc. Starc is probably better than James Anderson seeing that he's had to bowl mostly on Aus roads and James bowled under the clouds in England.
No one has actually said that...

But the last sentence is correct.
 

_00_deathscar

International Regular
For the record, Australian bats at home since 2010 (Smith's debut), minimum 500 runs:

Labuschagne: 22 tests, average of 70.50
Clarke: 25 tests, average of 65.64
Smith: 48 tests, average of 64.51
Hussey: 19 tests, average of 61.30
Warner: 55 tests, average of 58.39
Head: 22 tests, average of 57.40
Khawaja: 31 tests, average of 55.46

If you open this filter up to opposition bats too, only the below make it in for 50+
Pant: 7 tests, average of 62.40
Cook: 15 tests, average of 57.83
Kohli: 13 tests, average of 54.08

Separately, Kohli averages 61-odd at home in 40-something tests in India too, and this is after his recent NZ/Sri Lanka shitshow.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
But that's what's really pushing his average up above 60 though (again, please don't make me use the caveat of where I think he sits as a player).

To give you an example, noted home track bully Jaya only average a shade under 60 at home. Sanga average just a shade above 60 at home. Still a big difference from 64.

Sanga came close to the 60 mark (58.94 in his 122nd test) and I believe Ponting did actually cross it (by having a 10+ difference in average at home) at one point.

My basic point is that too much is made of the 60+ average. On top of that, I do think Smith has a way to go - he's not yet at 100 tests. These guys played 130, 140, 150 etc tests - obviously with Sachin playing an insane 200+.
I agree with all of that.

Sanga actually has more home padding than even Smith tho.

Ponting extended his career for longer but had he retired in 2007 he certainly would be in the 5 best bats ever.

Maintaining a 60 plus average for as long as Smith has is a real achievement tho, beneficial conditions and all.
 

Godard

U19 Vice-Captain
I agree with all of that.

Sanga actually has more home padding than even Smith tho.

Ponting extended his career for longer but had he retired in 2007 he certainly would be in the 5 best bats ever.

Maintaining a 60 plus average for as long as Smith has is a real achievement tho, beneficial conditions and all.
Disagree on Ponting, horrible record in a major nation(India) which was also Australia’s key competitor during his career, combined with a peak in mid 2000s(averaged sub 45 prior 2002), which was one of the easier eras to bat. Would have been top 10-12 then. Still one of the top 20 bats(around 17 for me).
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
Haven't read last few pages. Have we found a semi credible hole in Smith's record yet? I'm desparate for it.
 

_00_deathscar

International Regular
For the record, Australian bats at home since 2010 (Smith's debut), minimum 500 runs:

Labuschagne: 22 tests, average of 70.50
Clarke: 25 tests, average of 65.64
Smith: 48 tests, average of 64.51
Hussey: 19 tests, average of 61.30
Warner: 55 tests, average of 58.39
Head: 22 tests, average of 57.40
Khawaja: 31 tests, average of 55.46
Contrasting this with home runs in India you only have the below players since Kohli’s debut to average 50+
Sharma: 73.33 in 20 tests
Kohli: 61.06 in 46 tests
Pujara: 54.89 in 46 tests

Pant and Agarwal also have a 60+ average but both have played under 10 tests
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Actually Smith averages 57 away and 64 at home. 7 runs is a fair difference and a lot of it goes to plundering on some flat pitches in the mid-2010s.

Tendulkar averaged 54 away and 52 at home by comparison.
Wait you’re trying to poke a hole in his average by pointing out he averages 5 more per innings away than the guy you’re wanting to boost in this comparison (not that he needs boosting btw, he was an amazing player).
 

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