The legacy of Steve Smith

[subshakerz]

Do you run this sort of analysis by the other dominant players of his (and every other) era? Because Smith averages 60 away and 64 at home. Disavowing those raw numbers, the discrepancy itself is pretty low compared with the vast majority of players.

Actually Smith averages 57 away and 64 at home. 7 runs is a fair difference and a lot of it goes to plundering on some flat pitches in the mid-2010s.

Tendulkar averaged 54 away and 52 at home by comparison.

 

[subshakerz]

Yea just saying, it starts getting a little silly. I don’t think there’s that much in it if we look at great attacks - @subshakerz is right there for once. The difference is Smith has gone absolutely bonkers vs the weaker attacks to a level Sachin never did.

There is also something to be said for Smith’s home averages propping up his overall average, even during “bowling friendly era”. You only have to look at other Aussie batsmen’s home averages - Warner, Khawaja etc
Which isn’t to suggest he’s crap or anything but the overall is massively massively inflated as a result of him absolutely dominating at home.

Yes, this is a good point. Smith is averaging 64 at home. Yet around the same time he is doing so, look at his fellow bats averages at home:

Labuschane: 70
Warner: 58
Travis Head: 57
Khwaja: 55

In fact, a guy like Labuschane who can manage an average of 60 overall in the same lineup with Smith kind of takes away from Smith being so exceptional.

 

[Coronis]

In fact, a guy like Labuschane who can manage an average of 60 overall in the same lineup with Smith kind of takes away from Smith being so exceptional.

No not really, since Smith’s played the exact same number of home and away innings, and Labuschagne has played twice as many home innings as away.

Actually Smith averages 57 away and 64 at home. 7 runs is a fair difference and a lot of it goes to plundering on some flat pitches in the mid-2010s.

Tendulkar averaged 54 away and 52 at home by comparison.

lol are you seriously trying to downgrade a bloke for averaging 57 away? ATG’s who average more than that is literally Bradman, Barrington, Hammond and Hobbs.

 

[Socerer 01]

No not really, since Smith’s played the exact same number of home and away innings, and Labuschagne has played twice as many home innings as away.



lol are you seriously trying to downgrade a bloke for averaging 57 away? ATG’s who average more than that is literally Bradman, Barrington, Hammond and Hobbs.

labuschagne has also had inordinate amounts of luck and is due for a return to normalcy

 

[subshakerz]

No not really, since Smith’s played the exact same number of home and away innings, and Labuschagne has played twice as many home innings as away.

Sure, but it tells me that there is some extraordinary home padding that Smith and co. benefit from that inflates their averages. The fact that another bat who is clearly not as good as Smith in the same lineup can average 60 too just means that we shouldn't take Smith's average at face value.

lol are you seriously trying to downgrade a bloke for averaging 57 away? ATG’s who average more than that is literally Bradman, Barrington, Hammond and Hobbs.

57 away is still in the realm of mortals. Its just 3 points more than most greats and lets see if he can keep it that high.

 

[Coronis]

Yup he scored those runs so he gets credit, but if you remember that series, a lot of damage was done by other bats up the order and he was doing quite a bit of downhill skiing. Certainly not a standout series the way he dominated in India in 2017 or even Tendulkar dominating Steyn in 2010.

Yeah no. Literally the only time he came in at a comfortable position was in the 3rd test.

I wouldn’t call 4/98 and 5/120 coming in and skiing downhill.

 

[Arachnodouche]

I'm pretty sure Bradman's batting resembled Smith's more than Sachin's, because you can't be that damned good and ahead of everyone else without looking absolutely hideous while doing it. Smith is unquestionably the most gag-reflex-inducing batsman I've ever seen but he's also a legit freak of nature and an ATG. Second best since, probably not, not undisputedly anyway, more like top 5. Now if he'd been a total outlier averaging 70 or something, then sure, but as of now it's all in a state of relative flux.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Do you run this sort of analysis by the other dominant players of his (and every other) era? Because Smith averages 60 away and 64 at home. Disavowing those raw numbers, the discrepancy itself is pretty low compared with the vast majority of players.

Think you missed my point there - no one is denying Smith is absolutely exceptional. Maybe “propping” up is the wrong word to use. I’m just saying his ability to beat up at home, and not just him - seems to be all the Australians - is really pushing his average further up than what it maybe could/should/would be.

 

[_00_deathscar]

I agree with the home assessment but then, he's also dominant outside Australia as well. This is quite unique among his contemporaries.

Well yes - that’s what’s pushing him to that Sobers/Sachin/Lara etc level and in contention for the best of that too.

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah no. Literally the only time he came in at a comfortable position was in the 3rd test.

I wouldn’t call 4/98 and 5/120 coming in and skiing downhill.

Point was more that several Aussies bats made merry on that tour. Warner did much better than Smith. Smith didnt top score in a single innings. So its not as impressive as the numbers indicate to qualify it as a great sample.

 

[Coronis]

Which isn’t to suggest he’s crap or anything but the overall is massively massively inflated as a result of him absolutely dominating at home.

The ****? He’s played the same amount of innings home and away. He averages 60 overall and 57 away. In what universe is that massively inflating his average?

Sometimes I really wish people would share whatever **** they’re on with me.

 

[_00_deathscar]

The ****? He’s played the same amount of innings home and away. He averages 60 overall and 57 away. In what universe is that massively inflating his average?

Sometimes I really wish people would share whatever **** they’re on with me.

In the context of the company we’re talking against, his average is indeed inflated by Australian roads at home, as shown by other Aussies like Warner, Khawaja etc who have played at the same time as Smith having insane home averages. I’m saying that’s what’s really pushing it to that mythical 60+ which he seems to maintain
(And he’s played a few more home than away, not a huge amount but it’s 48 home vs 44 away/neutral).

Sachin played 12 more away tests for example, and averaged more away (nearly 55, so not that different).

 

[subshakerz]

The ****? He’s played the same amount of innings home and away. He averages 60 overall and 57 away. In what universe is that massively inflating his average?

Sometimes I really wish people would share whatever **** they’re on with me.

Its not massive inflating away. It is an inflation though at home.

I think averages of 55 for Khawaja, 57 for Head, 58 for Warner, 64 for Smith and 70 for Labuschane are all inflated by a few points above a norm.

 

[Slifer]

It helps to know how to read stats.
He’s played 48 tests, 81 innings at home at 64.51
Away+neutral he’s played 44 tests, 81 innings, and averages much less (60 away from 40 tests, 34 neutral from 4 tests)

Which translate to 58 away. In whay world is averaging 58 away and scoring 14 tons in 44 tests not amazing. Huh?

 

[Slifer]

Are wickets in Australia any more conducive to batting than India? That's news to me.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Which translate to 58 away. In whay world is averaging 58 away and storing 14 tons in 44 tests not amazing. Huh?

Edited my post so reply to the edit please as I’ve cleared it.

In case you haven’t read my other posts, it’s obvious I rate Smith. Why do I need to keep repeating that I don’t think he’s **** - this is dumb. I’m arguing against him being the CLEAR best 2nd best (still too early for that too) based merely on a 60 average. That 60 is propped up by home roads.

Once again, I repeat that I think he’s in the company of Sachin and co if he were to retire today. How he goes for the next 3-5 years or so will be interesting.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Are wickets in Australia any more conducive to batting than India? That's news to me.

They have been for a while, yes.

 

[Coronis]

It helps to know how to read stats.
He’s played 48 tests, 81 innings at home at 64.51
Away+neutral he’s played 44 tests, 81 innings, and averages much less (60 away from 40 tests, 34 neutral from 4 tests)

Yes, 57.57 away from home in 81 innings. A greater away record than all but a handful of players. Greater than anybody’s total record since Sobers. (Labu and Mitchell excluded for obvious reasons)

A 64.51 home record in 81 innings. Pushes his overall average to 60.89. And you call that massively massively inflating? Perhaps you need to look up the definition of massively. Massively inflating home records is what players like Warner, Labuschagne, Williamson, Kohli, Jayawardene and Compton have. Hell even Root has a bigger home and away difference and I don’t hear anyone whinging that his average his inflated.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Yes, 57.57 away from home in 81 innings. A greater away record than all but a handful of players. Greater than anybody’s total record since Sobers. (Labu and Mitchell excluded for obvious reasons)

A 64.51 home record in 81 innings. Pushes his overall average to 60.89. And you call that massively massively inflating? Perhaps you need to look up the definition of massively. Massively inflating home records is what players like Warner, Labuschagne, Williamson, Kohli, Jayawardene and Compton have. Hell even Root has a bigger home and away difference and I don’t hear anyone whinging that his average his inflated.

But no one is placing any of those in Smith’s league are they?

 

[Slifer]

Edited my post so reply to the edit please as I’ve cleared it.

In case you haven’t read my other posts, it’s obvious I rate Smith. Why do I need to keep repeating that I don’t think he’s **** - this is dumb. I’m arguing against him being the CLEAR best 2nd best (still too early for that too) based merely on a 60 average. That 60 is propped up by home roads.

Once again, I repeat that I think he’s in the company of Sachin and co if he were to retire today. How he goes for the next 3-5 years or so will be interesting.

Fair enough. He's not the clear 2nd best and yes a lot will depend and on the numbers he ends up with once he retires