Kohli’s India vs Imran’s Pakistan

[subshakerz]

He moved Shastri out but kept Kohli but interfered in the team selection and the role of Virat.

Excuses, excuses...Ganguly is not why India couldn't bowl out SA twice. They had the series in their hands.

 

[Xix2565]

Still not seeing anything about cricket here. Conspiracy theories don't count and you should be embarrassed for posting this idiotic captain worship/blame ideas. They really don't matter anymore than the talent available and performance of said talent.

 

[subshakerz]

Still not seeing anything about cricket here. Conspiracy theories don't count and you should be embarrassed for posting this idiotic captain worship/blame ideas. They really don't matter anymore than the talent available and performance of said talent.

Hmm, Stokes has won nine out of ten games with pretty much the same loser side that Root had. Unless you think that is just due to team changes and captaincy is irrelevant.

 

[Xix2565]

Hmm, Stokes has won nine out of ten games with pretty much the same loser side that Root had. Unless you think that is just due to team changes and captaincy is irrelevant.

Root didn't have Stokes for much of 2021 though? Root stepping down is his own thing and England winning under Stokes is good for them as per highlighting a new mindset in the squad, but it's not like that was the only new thing. Flatter pitches, bad batch of Duke's for a bit, inconsistent opposition due to injuries/form and such. And Root had a decent run in Tests before the 2nd Chennai Test in 2021, so you can't tell me they were losers just because they faced better teams at that point and got really worn down over the year.

I mean this to say that other factors are far more important in determining the quality of a side than who's got the (c) beside their name in the team sheet. So votes aside, what exactly differentiates Imran's Pakistan and Kohli's India?

 

[ZK$]

Xix2565 is completely right here actually. This England team is getting a bit overrated. They won away series in South Africa and Sri Lanka and a match in India under the previous captain and coach and also won home series against stronger South African and Indian sides.

Stokes as captain isn’t really changing the results in Australia or India last year. They probably aren’t beating the WTC finalists in their home series either with the conditions that were present and all the rest and rotation.

 

[subshakerz]

Root didn't have Stokes for much of 2021 though? Root stepping down is his own thing and England winning under Stokes is good for them as per highlighting a new mindset in the squad, but it's not like that was the only new thing. Flatter pitches, bad batch of Duke's for a bit, inconsistent opposition due to injuries/form and such. And Root had a decent run in Tests before the 2nd Chennai Test in 2021, so you can't tell me they were losers just because they faced better teams at that point and got really worn down over the year.

I mean this to say that other factors are far more important in determining the quality of a side than who's got the (c) beside their name in the team sheet. So votes aside, what exactly differentiates Imran's Pakistan and Kohli's India?

Root won 1 test in his last 17 games as captain, and then Stokes wins 9/10 games on the trot immediately after that.

Not saying there weren't other minor factors too, but if you don't think that the change in captain isn't the overwhelming factor in England's change in fortunes, then you are either disingenuous or so committed to your argument that you won't see an obvious fact staring you in the face.

Obviously, the talent available will dictate the roof of what a team can achieve, but there are a range of results that are determined by the quality of captain.

Imran's Pakistan was obviously a weaker team than Kohli's, mainly batting-wise, but Imran the captain to me achieved more with the team he had than Kohli did.

 

[subshakerz]

Xix2565 is completely right here actually. This England team is getting a bit overrated. They won away series in South Africa and Sri Lanka and a match in India under the previous captain and coach and also won home series against stronger South African and Indian sides.

Stokes as captain isn’t really changing the results in Australia or India last year. They probably aren’t beating the WTC finalists in their home series either with the conditions that were present and all the rest and rotation.

Root had gone into a rut in his captaincy and Stokes dug them out of it.

I guarantee England under Stokes would have at least won a test in Australia and won the series in WI.

England under Root would likely have drawn in Pakistan, but they would never have dreamed of whitewashing them. They would have lost against NZ this year, as they did in 2021, and likely lost the last test and series against India.

 

[Daemon]

Lol@Shastri the cheerleader.

Newsflash, it is the captain who actually leads the team on the field who deserves most credit. It's like ignoring Stokes and assuming BazBall is just McCullum.

And you can't give Virat the credit and then call Shastri the mastermind. Virat picked Shastri because unlike Kumble he is there to simply follow his way.

It's just rank denialism to not give Rahane's captaincy credit for India's 2021 victory, when even Shastri himself and team members playing under him did, and instead praise Kohli who left the team in a ditch after the first test and never even captained many of the new team members who played the second half of the series.

Shastri was key to the BG win based on interviews with Ashwin.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle - it’s odd to not to give Rahane any credit but it’s also unlikely that Rahane did this mostly all on his own and Kohli would’ve surely failed. Just impossible to know definitively either way and anyone who claims to know is talking bollocks.

 

[Daemon]

I guarantee England under Stokes would have at least won a test in Australia and won the series in WI.

This sort of statement is what I mean - how on earth would you know this

 

[Xix2565]

Root won 1 test in his last 17 games as captain, and then Stokes wins 9/10 games on the trot immediately after that.

Not saying there weren't other minor factors too, but if you don't think that the change in captain isn't the overwhelming factor in England's change in fortunes, then you are either disingenuous or so committed to your argument that you won't see an obvious fact staring you in the face.

Obviously, the talent available will dictate the roof of what a team can achieve, but there are a range of results that are determined by the quality of captain.

Imran's Pakistan was obviously a weaker team than Kohli's, mainly batting-wise, but Imran the captain to me achieved more with the team he had than Kohli did.

Again, context. See who England had to play during their poor run and who England played under Stokes. See the players involved, who was missing, who was available and fit, the conditions involved etc. To credit only the change in captaincy for the success is idiotic. Root's side had won 8 in 12 before they went on their poor run, so to pretend like Stokes saved them from the bottom is hilarious.

Root had gone into a rut in his captaincy and Stokes dug them out of it.

I guarantee England under Stokes would have at least won a test in Australia and won the series in WI.

England under Root would likely have drawn in Pakistan, but they would never have dreamed of whitewashing them. They would have lost against NZ this year, as they did in 2021, and likely lost the last test and series against India.

So basically making up things now to try to justify an untenable position. Their bowlers weren't good enough in Australia to consider a Test win as a sure chance, and given how the series played out in the WI Stokes could've easily lost that series in pretty much the same way as Root did. This desperate avoidance of addressing all the circumstances involved in each series is just ruining the discussion, I really don't get why you want to hold up this captaincy nonsense like it's some great holy truth that peons just don't get compared to looking at the bigger picture.

 

[honestbharani]

Shastri was key to the BG win based on interviews with Ashwin.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle - it’s odd to not to give Rahane any credit but it’s also unlikely that Rahane did this mostly all on his own and Kohli would’ve surely failed. Just impossible to know definitively either way and anyone who claims to know is talking bollocks.

Not just those interviews though. The Boria interviews and literally every other content online with the Indian team tells you pretty obviously he was the biggest reason.


Saltshakerz posting crap about cricket he did not watch nor understand as usual.

 

[ZK$]

England under Root would likely have drawn in Pakistan, but they would never have dreamed of whitewashing them. They would have lost against NZ this year, as they did in 2021, and likely lost the last test and series against India.

Those results are certainly possible. It’s also possible that they would have won in Pakistan like they won in South Africa or Sri Lanka. It’s also possible they would have won against New Zealand and India since they had a stronger side and completely different conditions this year.

The point is that you don’t really know what would have happened.

 

[honestbharani]

This sort of statement is what I mean - how on earth would you know this

Passion... ?

 

[honestbharani]

Was rahane a better red ball captain than Kohli?

Nope

 

[OverratedSanity]

I actually sincerely believe the complete meltdown India had after the Elgar lbw drs doesn't happen under basically any other captain. Am I pulling that out of my backside @Daemon ? Yes. But deal with it. Kohli losing the plot there seemed to affect the bowlers too and they bowled 5 overs of rubbish immediately after that and pissed the game away.

 

[Xix2565]

Passion... ?

You forgot 3 letters.

 

[centurymaker]

As far as overseas performance is concerned India’s 2007-11 team is better than Kohli’s Team

2007 Eng won
2007 Aus should have drawn against a much stronger side if not for Buckenor
2009 NZ won
2010 SA Drew against a very strong side
2011 WI Won despite missing 4 players

We actually underperformed in Kohli’s tenure . Should have atleast drawn in both ENG+ SA.

India were misfortunate not to win in South Africa for a variety of reasons.

Their two best batsmen of 2021 were out injured for entire series. Rohit and Jadeja.

Won the 1st test and had all the momentum, but captain Kohli got injured right before 2nd test and Rahul had to take over who is the worst captain of the lot. Plus India's batting was looking as fragile as ever due to the absences.

Then Siraj broke down during the 1st innings of the 2nd test. India being a bowler short, it cost them the match.

South Africa winning the 2nd test was crucial as it gave them the much needed belief and confidence to win the final test as Jansen had grown leaps and bounds. And South Africa's bowling attack felt as strong as ever before! Batting also started to fire somehow. Things just went SA's way. And they cruised to victory.

 

[centurymaker]

This year India were misfortunate before 5th test vs England too. No Rahul and Rohit. No top order in English conditions. Bumrah as captain, which has to be a joke... England fully regrouped and firing. Ben Stokes back. Bazball in.

You could really argue that ever since Kohli's removal from captaincy in limited overs, India has been mediocre and totally disrupted!! Captaincy has been a revolving door. There's no stability. Just uncertainty.

If you think things have been bad, wait a while as I could totally see India losing the upcoming BG series...

They should have never touched the Kohli Shastri combo or at least should have kept one of them in charge! That's partly why India's been going down hill since last year.

 

[Sunil1z]

India were misfortunate not to win in South Africa for a variety of reasons.

Their two best batsmen of 2021 were out injured for entire series. Rohit and Jadeja.

Won the 1st test and had all the momentum, but captain Kohli got injured right before 2nd test and Rahul had to take over who is the worst captain of the lot. Plus India's batting was looking as fragile as ever due to the absences.

Then Siraj broke down during the 1st innings of the 2nd test. India being a bowler short, it cost them the match.

South Africa winning the 2nd test was crucial as it gave them the much needed belief and confidence to win the final test as Jansen had grown leaps and bounds. And South Africa's bowling attack felt as strong as ever before! Batting also started to fire somehow. Things just went SA's way. And they cruised to victory.

India have been unfortunate in SA since 2006/07

Lost 3rd Test in 06/07 and losing series 1-2 despite scoring 400 runs in 1st innings in 3rd Test

Couldn’t win 3rd Test in 10/11 despite having them on 120/6

Couldn’t win 1st Test in 2013 despite SA needing 458 to win in 4th innings

Couldn’t chase 200 in 4th innings in 1st Test in 2018

Less said about 2022 the better

I think SA somehow manage to not lose to India . One of their players always foil our plan.

 

[subshakerz]

Again, context. See who England had to play during their poor run and who England played under Stokes. See the players involved, who was missing, who was available and fit, the conditions involved etc. To credit only the change in captaincy for the success is idiotic. Root's side had won 8 in 12 before they went on their poor run, so to pretend like Stokes saved them from the bottom is hilarious.

I don't credit only the change in captaincy, I just say that it was the biggest factor in the sudden turn around and you treat it like a non-factor. Please pretend that all other factors equal, Root would be winning 9/10 tests in a row.

So basically making up things now to try to justify an untenable position. Their bowlers weren't good enough in Australia to consider a Test win as a sure chance, and given how the series played out in the WI Stokes could've easily lost that series in pretty much the same way as Root did. This desperate avoidance of addressing all the circumstances involved in each series is just ruining the discussion, I really don't get why you want to hold up this captaincy nonsense like it's some great holy truth that peons just don't get compared to looking at the bigger picture.

You are the one bending backwards to prove that all results would be the same even if a lemon was in charge.

Captaincy is important is getting the most out of a team and to deny that is to ignore the dynamics of the sport.