Ian Botham v Shaun Pollock

[Red_Ink_Squid]

He basically devolved into Vaas by the end of his career.

I don't think Migara is going to take this as a criticism.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Botham should be streets ahead of Pollock, but unfortunately he didn't keep himself fit beyond the natural fitness of the young Human so went down the pan fairly quickly. Up to the age of around 25 you can get away with smoking exotic tobacco and shagging barmaids on tour instead of honing and toning. I still voted for him here, but it's not the easy choice it should be.

 

[subshakerz]

“We shouldn’t downgrade a player for playing past his peak”

I always argued against that tho.

 

[Migara]

Botham should be streets ahead of Pollock, but unfortunately he didn't keep himself fit beyond the natural fitness of the young Human so went down the pan fairly quickly. Up to the age of around 25 you can get away with smoking exotic tobacco and shagging barmaids on tour instead of honing and toning. I still voted for him here, but it's not the easy choice it should be.

This is called poor work ethic and a weakness. Another aspect where Pollock excelled.

 

[Migara]

I don't think Migara is going to take this as a criticism.

Pollock in last 5 years in his career 26.4 with the bat and 30.1 with the ball
Vaas in last 5 years of his career 33.3 with the bat and 28.6 with the ball.

So he has gone below Vaas actually.

Botham in last 5 years 20.4 with the bat and 55.6 with the ball.

Amazed how Botham managed to get picked from 1987-92 with those performances.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Botham had a century and a 5-for (albeit a fairly bizarre one) in the 86/87 Ashes. But he didn’t play much after the 87 summer in England. He was in and out up to 92 but more out than in and didn’t play a lot.

 

[trundler]

“We shouldn’t downgrade a player for playing past his peak”

Botham's issue is he declined rapidly before even turning 30. If he had sustained like 80% of his performance for ~30 more tests he'd win this in a canter. But he didn't. The fact that it was mostly poor discipline that caused it hurts his reputation even more. It's too short a peak by ATG standards, glorious though it was.

 

[ankitj]

This one is really tricky when I think about it. I usually have Botham in top 20 cricketers of all time and Pollock nowhere near that. But when I think of them head to head it seems like a tie between the two strangely.

 

[subshakerz]

Botham's issue is he declined rapidly before even turning 30. If he had sustained like 80% of his performance for ~30 more tests he'd win this in a canter. But he didn't. The fact that it was mostly poor discipline that caused it hurts his reputation even more. It's too short a peak by ATG standards, glorious though it was.

Actually his peak length was kinda ok by ATG standards. It's just how poor he was after that.

He basically went from one of the best players ever to Chris Cairns to not even a test class cricketer.

 

[AndrewB]

Botham should be streets ahead of Pollock, but unfortunately he didn't keep himself fit beyond the natural fitness of the young Human so went down the pan fairly quickly. Up to the age of around 25 you can get away with smoking exotic tobacco and shagging barmaids on tour instead of honing and toning.

And, to be fair to him, walking from Land's End to John O'Groats to raise money for charity (when you've already had back injuries) is probably not ideal training.

 

[mr_mister]

This one is really tricky when I think about it. I usually have Botham in top 20 cricketers of all time and Pollock nowhere near that. But when I think of them head to head it seems like a tie between the two strangely.

Pollock is really goddamn underrated.

A McGrath who can bat. And yes I know he wasn't quite as good as McGrath before someone chimes in. But he's damn close.

 

[Coronis]

Pollock’s bowling always seems quite underrated, possibly because he wasn’t excessively fast and was less penetrative in his latter years. Aside from his record against Australia (possibly the greatest team ever), he doesn’t really have any flaws.

 

[ankitj]

Pollock’s bowling always seems quite underrated, possibly because he wasn’t excessively fast and was less penetrative in his latter years. Aside from his record against Australia (possibly the greatest team ever), he doesn’t really have any flaws.

And in his best years he was an understudy to Donald and went somewhat underappreciated.

 

[trundler]

How is Pollock underrated? Everyone brings him up as a guy that's underrated that he ends up being rated appropriately. Why would he be as highly rated as the guy who was better than him for like a decade? He's viewed as broadly being on par with Walsh and that's accurate imo. I doubt you guys have him in the top 12 of all time. What people mean when they say he's underrated is that he's in the top handful that ever played without being as good as the very best so he's not brought up as one of the best ever.. which he wasn't so he isn't. Is Dravid underrated?

Aside from his record against Australia (possibly the greatest team ever), he doesn’t really have any flaws.

His record against Australia isn't a problem really. He had some good series and a bad one as an old man. Fine if you ask me. The problem is that he became a lot less penetrative by ATG standards when he got older and lost pace. He averaged 31 away after 2003 with a strike rate of 70. Now that's a problem. We know how spicy SA pitches are as a rule and Pollock became a containing bowler towards the end, which IMO is a limitation by ATG standards.That's obviously going to affect his ranking which is fair IMO.

He wasn't McGrath though, was he?

 

[ZK$]

I think Pollock was a great bowler, but I do think he gets slightly overrated. He has a bowling strike rate of 65 away from home. Most ATG bowlers are in the 45-55 range.

 

[subshakerz]

Pollock’s bowling always seems quite underrated, possibly because he wasn’t excessively fast and was less penetrative in his latter years. Aside from his record against Australia (possibly the greatest team ever), he doesn’t really have any flaws.

One point that is underrated is how good he was in the SC. Much better than McGrath. He won matches which led to series victories in Pakistan and India, and had two terrific series in Sri Lanka. He is up there with Walsh, Steyn, and Marshall as the best foreign pacers in the SC.

 

[honestbharani]

I tend to pick Pollock over McGrath in my AT ODI sides, so I, at least, am not guilty of underrating him.

 

[subshakerz]

His record against Australia isn't a problem really. He had some good series and a bad one as an old man. Fine if you ask me. The problem is that he became a lot less penetrative by ATG standards when he got older and lost pace. He averaged 31 away after 2003 with a strike rate of 70. Now that's a problem. We know how spicy SA pitches are as a rule and Pollock became a containing bowler towards the end, which IMO is a limitation by ATG standards.That's obviously going to affect his ranking which is fair IMO.

Yeah but as mentioned that period is a fraction of his entire career, 70% of the time he was absolutely worldclass. That's where he leaps ahead of Botham.

 

[Anil]

considering their peaks, botham easily...pollock was obviously more consistent and didn't have as steep a decline but stats aside, if i had to choose between one or the other in an xi, would still choose botham most times...i am a great admirer of pollock and botham is a prize dickhead as a person but he also had that undeniable x factor, that edge, that match-turning/winning ability with bat and ball that shaun never really had...

 

[subshakerz]

considering their peaks, botham easily...pollock was obviously more consistent and didn't have as steep a decline but stats aside, if i had to choose between one or the other in an xi, would still choose botham most times...i am a great admirer of pollock and botham is a prize dickhead as a person but he also had that undeniable x factor, that edge, that match-turning/winning ability with bat and ball that shaun never really had...

Actually selection in an XI makes Pollock's case easier since he naturally will go at 7/8 and take a bowler's spot, whereas Botham doesnt quite fit in the top six nor in the bowler's spots, assuming you want to pick the best specialists in the respective positions.