shortpitched713
International Captain
Would you like to share with the class?Yes.
Would you like to share with the class?Yes.
>Sorry Himann, don't really agree with your Kallis take here. Feels like you're downplaying him a lot saying his runs were valuable for himself rather than the team.
He was the key batsman and prized wicket in a team that rose to #1. If you have an issue with his strike rate, then Border's is less. If it's about winning games of cricket for their team then Kallis did a heck of a lot of that. (Obviously Kallis won more games than Border due to overall team strength but even proportional to their number of wins Kallis contributed centuries in almost half of his Test wins, Border was way short of that.)
I think it’s a case of him scoring slowly when he’s more than capable of scoring much quicker if he wants to. Also it’s him scoring slowly when his team would, at that point in the game, value runs scored quicker to help them get a win. So it’s not just about him scoring slowly but the context of the runs he scores in my view.
I don’t think Border is a particularly quick scorer, but would he score quicker if it would help his team win? Absolutely he would. He’d walk through walls to help his team if he can.
Who hit the most boundaries?Big Allan Border has got level
And he's coming home down the outside with momentum, he's gonna get up in the last stride.Big Allan Border has got level
Got to be KallisWho hit the most boundaries?
Kallis is the single most overrated bat on this forum. This thread is just a confirmation of that.Nah, it’s ridiculous that it’s this even.
Kallis mostly just got into his shell and accumulated his runs regardless of the match situation. He was a good bat for sure, but nothing in comparison to Border who pretty much played a lone hand for most of it and kept his team competitive despite the rest of them being rubbish for most part.
Border scored runs just as much as Kallis but they were runs that were far more valuable to his team. The runs Kallis accumulated were mostly just valuable to himself.
Border’s wicket was key to beating the Aussies and he often stood in the gap against opposition that was stronger than his team. The only gap that Kallis ever stood in was the one in the line to the cafeteria.
Border was the prize wicket when his team was bottom tier and was still the top wicket when he took them to top tier.He was the key batsman and prized wicket in a team that rose to #1.
If you watch cricket, then you know cricket is a momentum game. Scoring quicker is also about putting pressure on the opposition.I don't understand this point. Like at a fundamental level. If you score runs, they get added to your teams total. Just because they're slower than another player's runs scored doesn't make them disappear. And whether it helps more for them to be scored quickly or slowly is dependent on complex, case by case match situations.
On this site, instead I often hear (not from you mind, but this is an opinion I've seen here) low sr = bad, high sr = good. Like for real, this sort of opinion is flabbergasting, as when I watch Test cricket it looks an awful lot like all the guys are trying to help their teams win by scoring the runs or taking the wickets they do.
I remember a quote from Pat Cummins who said the toughest batsman he has had to bowl to was PujaraQuality bowlers will prefer bowling to guys like Dravid and Kallis as they are predictable. I remember a quote from Mohd Asif who said he liked to bowl to Dravid since he allowed him to get into his own rhythm.
In careers as long as theirs, and with similar low SRs, I'd expect variance in game stage requirements to smooth out and their overall SRs to be pretty indicative. I know Kallis left runs behind by not accelerating ftom watching him and didn't really see Border. But Kallis scored faster overall, batted higher where SR is much less of an issue, and looking at innings by innings list, did seem to play a lot more quicker innings.I think it’s a case of him scoring slowly when he’s more than capable of scoring much quicker if he wants to. Also it’s him scoring slowly when his team would, at that point in the game, value runs scored quicker to help them get a win. So it’s not just about him scoring slowly but the context of the runs he scores in my view.
I don’t think Border is a particularly quick scorer, but would he score quicker if it would help his team win? Absolutely he would. He’d walk through walls to help his team if he can.
That was a particular strategy that India employed in the recent series. Pujara was meant to take time, bat slow and wear down the bowlers so the lower order could attack, while Cummins thought Pujara would score more quickly.I remember a quote from Pat Cummins who said the toughest batsman he has had to bowl to was Pujara
Did you really mention Lara in a post about maximizing runs?One thing is, the bolded isn't a point in Tendulkar's favor. As a batsman, you're supposed to maximize your runs scored to help your team get better results, regardless of the conditions. I think there's a big tendency to fetishize "hard" conditions, when oftentimes at a fundamental level batting run accumulation is about taking advantage of the "easy" (loose bowling, loss of movement or bounce, tired bowlers, etc.). It takes different kinds of mental discipline to make the most of all of these factors.
On the other hand, I've already given my points for the reasons I have my opinions. I don't think we're really getting anywhere, or that we're arguing too much on points of fact. I've got Tendulkar in an All-time Great bracket, just not as high up it as the general consensus on the site seems to be ( I'd put Lara, and Smith given a continuing current career trajectory, in a clear tier above Tendulkar. )
Slow scorers definitely have a role, but all things being equal, I would prefer an aggressive bat to a grinder or accumulator.There is nothing wrong with being a slow accumulator so long as you hang around. You wear out opposition bowlers, you give your teams accelerators a break, even reigning them in before they self implode. While, potentially eating up time that might cost a win, you also eat up time that prevents the opposition from winning.
Its a bad reason to not rate someone, except regarding entertainment value.
He was supposed to be the opposite of the role given to him by his team, because you decided it?The thing in Kallis' case that people forget is that he was supposed to be the team's alpha aggressive bat, not the guy who others bat around. They had several other good accumulators around him to set a platform. Ideally he should have been the one to intimidate and turn the screws which he showed only later in his career that he was capable of.
Border played mostly for a much weaker lineup, so him grinding it out was more justified as a form of damage control.
Not because I decided it, because his position demanded it.He was supposed to be the opposite of the role given to him by his team, because you decided it?
I'm declaring that Border was supposed to be a hard hitting right arm quick, and marking him down for his failure to match my expectations.
Why? Throughout his entire career he was surrounded by a great supporting cast of batsmen, the only ones who batted as slowly as him being Kirsten and Prince. What is so wrong about him being a relatively slow ATG batsman amongst a team that already had a bunch of quality faster scoring batsmen?The thing in Kallis' case that people forget is that he was supposed to be the team's alpha aggressive bat, not the guy who others bat around. They had several other good accumulators around him to set a platform. Ideally he should have been the one to intimidate and turn the screws which he showed only later in his career that he was capable of.
Border played mostly for a much weaker lineup, so him grinding it out was more justified as a form of damage control.