What is your ranking of all Country's ATG XIs?

[Burgey]

At the very least Headley has the same problem that Pollock has of not playing enough tests.

He played over a much longer period though, which I think counts for a fair bit. I mean, Barnes played all of 27 tests in his career but I don't know that it's used to exclude him from ATG discussions.

If he'd played that number of tests in the current era you could argue he had a Voges-like career, but I think he pretty much played every test he could in the era he played in, albeit he was truncated by WW2

 

[ankitj]

I don't exclude either Pollock or Headley as such. Headley's 2-3 tests after the world war were very poor. So I don't know what it adds to really. Pollock could have played 2-3 tests after readmission even and easily made just as many runs tbf.

 

[shortpitched713]

I think the problem of talking about an England ATG team, is it's weird to talk about a team full of players from the early/middle part of the 20th century, and ask how they'd match up against teams composed almost entirely of more modern / recent memory players. The game was undoubtedly different then, and unfortunately England is the only team that really has this problem.

Even Australia and South Africa don't have this problem, as excluding Bradman, most of the players are post WWII at the earliest.

 

[subshakerz]

Also Kallis is in same league as Headley easily. Pollock in Lara league possibly (Bradman rated Pollock and Sobers as best left handed batsmen of all time and he had seen Lara play). At the very least Headley has the same problem that Pollock has of not playing enough tests.

Headley and Pollock basically cancel each other out then as ATGs with short career samples. Then you have Kallis, ABD and Faulkner vs Lara, Richards and Sobers.

No contest.

 

[subshakerz]

Would probably have Lillee over one of Lindwall or Davo, and imo Warne is a lock if there's only one spinner. Great seeing Bill Lawry getting some love here. Bloke is a genuinely underrated player.

Hayden should be there. Average a bit padded but still the top 1/2 openers of the last 20 years.

 

[subshakerz]

I think the problem of talking about an England ATG team, is it's weird to talk about a team full of players from the early/middle part of the 20th century, and ask how they'd match up against teams composed almost entirely of more modern / recent memory players. The game was undoubtedly different then, and unfortunately England is the only team that really has this problem.

Even Australia and South Africa don't have this problem, as excluding Bradman, most of the players are post WWII at the earliest.

Becomes even more difficult if we consider WG Grace.

 

[Line and Length]

Australia has the best with a 4-man pace attack, all worldclass bowlers, plus the best spinner.

Pakistan are next but I would put Saqlain as spinner instead of Qadir. They have a deadly 4-man pace attack which gives them an edge. In fact, I can imagine Imran as captain using Shoaib and Waqar in short bursts which would be very deadly.

WI is next. Sobers is a weak link but Marshall & Ambrose are top drawer and the difference between Gibbs and Tayfield doesnt make up the difference in pacers.

SA surprisingly are fourth as Kallis is a weak link.

England has the weakest pace attack because it is hard to judge Barnes and Anderson & Botham are below ATG quality.

What? I know your talking about bowling, but the variety he provides is unique.

 

[subshakerz]

What? I know your talking about bowling, but the variety he provides is unique.

Weak link in comparison to worldclass quality we are talking about. No doubt his variety is very helpful but we are talking ATG level bowlers.

 

[TheJediBrah]

He played over a much longer period though, which I think counts for a fair bit. I mean, Barnes played all of 27 tests in his career but I don't know that it's used to exclude him from ATG discussions.

If he'd played that number of tests in the current era you could argue he had a Voges-like career, but I think he pretty much played every test he could in the era he played in, albeit he was truncated by WW2

How did you get this wrong when you lived through both

 

[Burgey]

Weak link in comparison to worldclass quality we are talking about. No doubt his variety is very helpful but we are talking ATG level bowlers.

Very few of the fifth bowling options in these teams are going to be at the level of the four front liners. And if they're that much of a drop off, then don't play a fifth bowler. Have six batsmen, and if one of them happens to bowl a bit, all the better. Kallis, for example, isn't a world class bowler but makes it as a top six batsman for SA. The fact he bowls is a bonus.

Imran would be a front line bowler alone, and probably Botham too for England. Neither would be in an AT side as batsmen though.

 

[ankitj]

Headley and Pollock basically cancel each other out then as ATGs with short career samples. Then you have Kallis, ABD and Faulkner vs Lara, Richards and Sobers.

No contest.

But openers and SA's countless all-rounders balance the scales a bit.

 

[Raz0r6ack]

Australia	England	India	New Zealand	Pakistan	South Africa	Sri Lanka	West Indies
B. Ponsford	J. Hobbs	V. Sehwag	J. Wright	S. Anwar	G. Smith ©	S. Jayasuriya	G. Greenidge
M. Hayden	H. Sutcliffe	S. Gavaskar	G. Turner	H. Mohammad	B. Richards	T. Dilshan	D. Haynes
D. Bradman ©	L. Hutton ©	R. Dravid	K. Williamson ©	Y. Khan	G. Pollock	K. Sangakkara ©	G. Headley
G. Chappell	W. Hammond	S. Tendulkar	M. Crowe	J. Miandad	J. Kallis	A. de Silva	V. Richards ©
S. Smith	K. Barrington	V. Kohli	R. Taylor	I. ul-Haq	A. de Villiers	M. Jayawardene	B. Lara
K. Miller	I. Botham	M. Dhoni (wk) ©	B. McCullum (wk)	I. Khan ©	A. Faulkner	A. Matthews	G. Sobers
A. Gilchrist (wk)	A. Knott (wk)	K. Dev	C. Cairns	S. Ahmed (wk)	M. Procter	D. Chandimal (wk)	J. Dujon (wk)
S. Warne	J. Laker	R. Ashwin	D. Vettori	W. Akram	M. Boucher (wk)	C. Vaas	M. Marshall
P. Cummins	F. Trueman	Z. Khan	R. Hadlee	S. Mushtaq	S. Pollock	R. Herath	M. Holding
D. Lillee	J. Anderson	M. Shami	N. Wagner	W. Younis	D. Steyn	L. Malinga	J. Garner
G. McGrath	S. Barnes	J. Bumrah	S. Bond	M. Asif	A. Donald	M. Muralidaran	C. Ambrose

 

[Jayro]

I think South Africa can also feature four pace bowlers in Donald, Pollock, Steyn and then one of Philander/Shultz/ Fanie de Villiers / edit - Procter on most pitches and yet be quite effective in fact with a bowling attack along the same line they were the only team who had dominated India in India, no other team came close to doing it not even Australia.

 

[ankitj]

There is Procter too that everyone seems to be forgetting.

 

[trundler]

Might have to do with not playing enough tests.

 

[subshakerz]

I think South Africa can also feature four pace bowlers in Donald, Pollock, Steyn and then one of Philander/Shultz/ Fanie de Villiers on most pitches and yet be quite effective in fact with a bowling attack along the same line they were the only team who had dominated India in India, no other team came close to doing it not even Australia.

Drop the spinner?

 

[Jayro]

Drop the spinner?

They can have Faulkner as a spinner.

 

[Jayro]

There is Procter too that everyone seems to be forgetting.

Yes him too

 

[ankitj]

Might have to do with not playing enough tests.

Don't bait PFK.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

I think South Africa can also feature four pace bowlers in Donald, Pollock, Steyn and then one of Philander/Shultz/ Fanie de Villiers / edit - Procter

Or Rabada