Hobbs or Hutton?

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Couldn’t be because Imran’s entire career overlapped with Sunny’s and only faced Sachin when his bowling was awful.

So ?

 

[shortpitched713]

Yeah, but Bradman is just the 8th best cricketer according to CW so his effect on teams is minimal.

I told you mate, once you adjust his average for "real opposition", it's only about 56.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

(Something weird is happening in cricinfo.) The team average for australia falls to 29.8 without him. In the 30s that is. Same effect in the 40s (though not really the 20s).

1930s
Australia with Bradman - 32.85
Without Bradman - 30.53

1970s
India with Gavaskar - 33.3
Without Gavaskar - 27.9

?

 

[Coronis]

So ?

So his opinion may be slightly biased. Anyway former cricketers (and athletes in general) have a notorious reputation for very questionable takes on questions like this.

 

[h_hurricane]

On a side note, Border's record against WI is getting over-rated here. He only averaged 39 against them. 3 hundreds in 59 innings, a few middling scores and scores of failures.

Relatively speaking to some of his contemporaries, it is a good record, but hardly earth shattering as it is made out to be.

Another interesting stat : His best performance (100* and 98*) against them came in the Port of Spain test of 1983-84 series. Great in the context that Aus drew the test by the skin of their teeth. Richards and Gomes bowled 72 overs between them in that match. Yes, 72 ****ing overs

 

[NZTailender]

This seemed more amusing until I made it

 

[Coronis]

On a side note, Border's record against WI is getting over-rated here. He only averaged 39 against them. 3 hundreds in 59 innings, a few middling scores and scores of failures.

Relatively speaking to some of his contemporaries, it is a good record, but hardly earth shattering as it is made out to be.

Another interesting stat : His best performance (100* and 98*) against them came in the Port of Spain test of 1983-84 series. Great in the context that Aus drew the test by the skin of their teeth. Richards and Gomes bowled 72 overs between them in that match. Yes, 72 ****ing overs

I wouldn’t call his 14 50’s against them failures, but thats just me. I do agree his record against them is a bit overrated.

I’d be bowling my spinners a few overs too when my 3 strike quicks combined for 4/119 from 46 overs in the second innings tbf. Obviously match context is quite important too, Border undoubtedly saved the match for Australia, probably twice, coming in at 16/3 and 41/3 and propelling them to over 250 in both innings, facing almost 100 overs.

 

[Starfighter]

1930s
Australia with Bradman - 32.85
Without Bradman - 30.53

1970s
India with Gavaskar - 33.3
Without Gavaskar - 27.9

?

Wrong.

Firstly the actual numbers are 35.29 -> 29.32 and 30.05 -> 27.03.

Secondly, by doing that you're taking away a batsman which is going to skew the average lower without actually meaning anything. If I were to remove all of India's top-middle order batsmen it would reduce their average to about fifteen and still wouldn't prove anything. To mean anything you have to substitute in a theoretical average batsman in that position - determining that is difficult because it's not an independent variable, higher averaging batsmen will shift that average higher.

And lastly, playing in a weaker team does not make a player better. While there are lots of things that influence averages, the average of the other batsmen in the team and match is not one of them.

 

[the big bambino]

1930s
Australia with Bradman - 32.85
Without Bradman - 30.53

1970s
India with Gavaskar - 33.3
Without Gavaskar - 27.9

?

I said before something is wrong with cricinfo but I don't know what. Starfighter has the better figures on Bradman and I'll check them later.

But your figures on Gavaskar looks way off. India 32.91. Without Gavaskar. 31.64

 

[Coronis]

1930s
Australia with Bradman - 32.85
Without Bradman - 30.53

1970s
India with Gavaskar - 33.3
Without Gavaskar - 27.9

?

I found this a really weird comparison in general, the 30’s Australian batting with Ponsford, Woodfull, Kippax (30-34), McCabe (30-38), Fingleton (32-38) and Brown (34-38) is clearly superior to the 70’s Indian batting of Engineer (71-75), Visawanth (71-79), Vengsarkar and Amarnath (76-79).

Also considering 5/6 matches Bradman missed (against a team with 0 sub-40 bowlers) were after half those blokes had retired and the 4 matches Sunny missed (against peak Roberts and Gibbs in India) were prior to Vengsarkar and Amaranth’s debut.

 

[Chrish]

Just went back and checked. All 100s Gavaskar had scored against WI post-1975 had at least one quality pace bowlers; often two (Andy Roberts, Sylvester Clarke, Michael Holding and later Marshall etc.). So, while his overall average might have suffered, he was perfectly capable of playing few big innings per series when needed. In fact, you could say he only failed against them in 1983 series (still scored unbeaten 147). He didn’t score that many runs in 1974-1975 but that was only two games.

In all other series, he often played two-three big innings. And this is how Hutton operated as well against Australia.. Scored one hundred and then few 50s or string of low scores per series.

So, I am not really sure where all this nonsense of Gavaskar struggling against pace bowlers coming from ?

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Just went back and checked. All 100s Gavaskar had scored against WI post-1975 had at least one quality pace bowlers; often two (Andy Roberts, Sylvester Clarke, Michael Holding and later Marshall etc.). So, while his overall average might have suffered, he was perfectly capable of playing few big innings per series when needed. In fact, you could say he only failed against them in 1983 series (still scored unbeaten 147). He didn’t score that many runs in 1974-1975 but that was only two games.

In all other series, he often played two-three big innings. And this is how Hutton operated as well against Australia.. Scored one hundred and then few 50s or string of low scores per series.

So, I am not really sure where all this nonsense of Gavaskar struggling against pace bowlers coming from ?

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Gavaskar scored a 188 in his last FC match against Marshall, Hadlee and Rice.
He was that good in the decline stage...
Or
Marshall and Hadlee are overrated.. They couldnt stop a 35+ aged batsman scoring 188 in his retirement match who was weak against pace in his peak.

 

[Coronis]

In all other series, he often played two-three big innings. And this is how Hutton operated as well against Australia.. Scored one hundred and then few 50s or string of low scores per series.

Guess you could say they both performed well against their premier opposition and are both ATG’s.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Wrong.

Firstly the actual numbers are 35.29 -> 29.32 and 30.05 -> 27.03.

Secondly, by doing that you're taking away a batsman which is going to skew the average lower without actually meaning anything. If I were to remove all of India's top-middle order batsmen it would reduce their average to about fifteen and still wouldn't prove anything. To mean anything you have to substitute in a theoretical average batsman in that position - determining that is difficult because it's not an independent variable, higher averaging batsmen will shift that average higher.

And lastly, playing in a weaker team does not make a player better. While there are lots of things that influence averages, the average of the other batsmen in the team and match is not one of them.

Aggregate/overall records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Check this ^^

 

[the big bambino]

Aggregate/overall records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Check this ^^

Yeah but is that a bowling stat or a batting stat? I'm not really certain cricinfo is giving the result you're looking for.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

I said before something is wrong with cricinfo but I don't know what. Starfighter has the better figures on Bradman and I'll check them later.

But your figures on Gavaskar looks way off. India 32.91. Without Gavaskar. 31.64

1970s

 

[the big bambino]

1970s

I know.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

I know.

Where did you find the stats then?

 

[ankitj]

Gavaskar scored a 188 in his last FC match against Marshall, Hadlee and Rice.
He was that good in the decline stage...
Or
Marshall and Hadlee are overrated.. They couldnt stop a 35+ aged batsman scoring 188 in his retirement match who was weak against pace in his peak.

Scorecard?

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Scorecard?

MCC vs ROWXI Cricket Scorecard at London, August 20 - 25, 1987

Get cricket scorecard of MCC vs ROWXI, Rest of the World XI tour of England 1987 at Lord's, London dated August 20 - 25, 1987.

www.espncricinfo.com