What is the general consensus on Makhaya Ntini's controversial history

[vicleggie]

All I remember is the first time I ever saw Ntini play, I was watching cricket with my racist uncle (yes, the Indian one), and when Ntini came on the screen he shouted "the rapist", and told me (I must've been 11 or so) about the case.

 

[mr_mister]

Brad McNamara.

I don't get it

 

[sledger]

It amazes me how much people use alcohol as an excuse with regards consent...

Yeah it's a big problem, particularly re: the intoxication of the complainant

 

[TheJediBrah]

Yeah it's a big problem, particularly re: the intoxication of the complainant

I remember a story of a kid who was expelled from college because a female student said he raped her because she was drunk and regretted it the next day. No one seemed to care that he was just as drunk as her and that maybe she has just as much reason to be accused of rape as he was

 

[Starfighter]

I sense a disaster impending in this thread.

 

[sledger]

I remember a story of a kid who was expelled from college because a female student said he raped her because she was drunk and regretted it the next day. No one seemed to care that he was just as drunk as her and that maybe she has just as much reason to be accused of rape as he was

oh dear

 

[TheJediBrah]

oh dear

IIRC he sued the college for a lot and won. There were a few similar cases where these kangaroo courts expelled men from colleges with no due process because they were accused and found guilty (not in criminal court obviously) by default and led to a lot of lawsuits. Policy changed pretty quickly I think

 

[Shady Slim]

IIRC he sued the college for a lot and won. There were a few similar cases where these kangaroo courts expelled men from colleges with no due process because they were accused and found guilty (not in criminal court obviously) by default and led to a lot of lawsuits. Policy changed pretty quickly I think

to clarify by "kangaroo court" you're referring to college disciplinary systems and not any actual court right?

because courts don't have the power to order expulsion of a student from a school (nor coincidentally to reverse expulsion)

 

[TheJediBrah]

to clarify by "kangaroo court" you're referring to college disciplinary systems and not any actual court right?

because courts don't have the power to order expulsion of a student from a school (nor coincidentally to reverse expulsion)

"kanagaroo court" is just a slang term for a "hearing" or "tribunal" that comes to a decision re. guilt or innocence without any fair process. In these cases almost like a salem witch trial. If you're accused, you're guilty, or at least in a lot of cases.

And yeah I'm just talking about college disciplinary systems, not a criminal court. I would assume it's a lot harder to get a guilty sentence in a criminal court

 

[Shady Slim]

"kanagaroo court" is just a slang term for a "hearing" or "tribunal" that comes to a decision re. guilt or innocence without any fair process. In these cases almost like a salem witch trial. If you're accused, you're guilty, or at least in a lot of cases.

yes i am aware lol i'm just making sure we're not talking at cross purposes here because your posts talk about legal courts and internal disciplinary systems and i just wanted to check that my understanding of ur post was correct lol

 

[TheJediBrah]

yes i am aware lol i'm just making sure we're not talking at cross purposes here because your posts talk about legal courts and internal disciplinary systems and i just wanted to check that my understanding of ur post was correct lol

My understanding is that the colleges being sued = legal courts, being expelled in the first place = internal disciplinary systems

 

[Shady Slim]

My understanding is that the colleges being sued = legal courts, being expelled in the first place = internal disciplinary systems

yeah no that'd be right just making sure i wasn't misreading your post lol

tbh the most obvious rider is that one swallow doesn't make a summer and even if the story ya heard's entirely 110% true and that guy got the bum steer, that's only an anecdote and doesn't really say much writ large

 

[sledger]

also worth keeping in mind that a person being so pissed that they mistakenly believe someone consents is not the same as someone being so pissed that their ability to consent at all (even if they wanted to) is basically destroyed are not the same thing

it's often trotted out to spin a "they are both victims" narrative, which is utter trash

 

[Shady Slim]

also worth keeping in mind that a person being so pissed that they mistakenly believe someone consents is not the same as someone being so pissed that their ability to consent at all (even if they wanted to) is basically destroyed are not the same thing

it's often trotted out to spin a "they are both victims" narrative, which is utter trash

now obviously the lawyers and lefties on the forum will agree with you on this one (because you are correct) but it is probably worth expanding on to preempt the inevitable disagreement

 

[TheJediBrah]

yeah no that'd be right just making sure i wasn't misreading your post lol

tbh the most obvious rider is that one swallow doesn't make a summer and even if the story ya heard's entirely 110% true and that guy got the bum steer, that's only an anecdote and doesn't really say much writ large

I wasn't trying to say that it does? It just came to mind when whoever it was mentioned the effects of alcohol. Also it's pretty messed up that 2 drunk people can have *** and one can be accused of rape because of what gender they are, even if it's relatively rare

also worth keeping in mind that a person being so pissed that they mistakenly believe someone consents is not the same as someone being so pissed that their ability to consent at all (even if they wanted to) is basically destroyed are not the same thing

I don't get the relevance of this, both are bad and in either scenario the perpetrator would be guilty right

 

[Shady Slim]

I wasn't trying to say that it does?

not saying you are, just that it's an important thing to mention when such a case is brought up because everywhere up and down the internet ppl look at those cases (or as a contemporary example the depp and heard trial) and try to use them to fashion a larger narrative about how complainants fake it for reason wxyz

 

[TheJediBrah]

not saying you are, just that it's an important thing to mention when such a case is brought up because everywhere up and down the internet ppl look at those cases (or as a contemporary example the depp and heard trial) and try to use them to fashion a larger narrative about how complainants fake it for reason wxyz

That's not necessarily a bad thing at all though, in moderation. It's also important to keep in mind that minority cases do happen. Men do get falsely accused of rape. Women do abuse men in relationships. If you forget that you risk failing to achieve justice.

I could see why you such a narrative could be dangerous in swinging trends too far the other way but I can't see "The wife was actually abusing the husband" becoming a common belief in cases of domestic conflict just because everyone seems to be on Johnny Depp's side

 

[Shady Slim]

That's not necessarily a bad thing at all though, in moderation. It's also important to keep in mind that minority cases do happen. Men do get falsely accused of rape. Women do abuse men in relationships. If you forget that you risk failing to achieve justice.

I could see why you such a narrative could be dangerous in swinging trends too far the other way but I can't see "The wife was actually abusing the husband" becoming a common belief in cases of domestic conflict just because everyone seems to be on Johnny Depp's side

nobody's suggesting that neither of these aren't true, nor that these aren't problems.

but all youve got to see is the tidal wave of abuse directed at complainants and closing of the ranks around the alleged offender when literally any famous man is accused of a misdeed against a woman, be they a sportsman or an actor or a musician or a politician, to see that a not insignificant portion of our society are set to "she's faking it" as default. it ranges from verballing to death threats and it's clearly a huge thing

 

[vicleggie]

I remember a story of a kid who was expelled from college because a female student said he raped her because she was drunk and regretted it the next day. No one seemed to care that he was just as drunk as her and that maybe she has just as much reason to be accused of rape as he was

Same happened publicly with the Metoo scandal against Aziz Ansari. The woman regretted it, so he lost most of his career.

 

[mr_mister]

You could cut the air with a knife in here