What is the general consensus on Makhaya Ntini's controversial history

[mr_mister]

I wanted to use the word "dark" rather than "controversial" as I feel controversial is more appropriate for like a Warnie calibre tabloid scandal but didn't want it to be mistaken as a racist pun. And "criminal" history feels wrong too since he was acquitted. But anyway enough whinging about the limits of the English language

All this time, I thought he had only been accused of rape and that's why he missed the '99 WC. Which of course is worrisome enough but I thought it might have been kinda just a very unsubstantiated rumour since as a kid I remember him back in the side fairly soon after.

While reading his wiki just now though I found out he was actually tried and convicted due to "overwhelming evidence".

He won his appeal 6 months into his sentence and was acquitted and went onto have a full cricket career. Which I guess if that acquittal was just, and he didn't actually do it, fair enough. Just seems strange for a conviction with apparent overwhelming evidence to be overturned. Especially as I feel a lack of evidence is what blocks many rape cases from ever getting off the ground in the first place.

I guess it's just surprising to me I'm just now learning it about the extent of this issue for a bloke who was a very famous cricketer in a very strong side. I've seen far more discussion about match fixers from that same era than this on CW

what are people's thoughts? Is it more likely the first trial was a farce or the appeal a farce? Because like... One of them must have been a farce right? For the older posters, was this huge news at the time? Or had it happened too early into his career

 

[Heboric]

I remember the initial charge, I know Ntini had Oily Bugger (Ali Bacher) in his corner plus the whole dreaded political thing, he was the only black player in the Proteas team that stage.

 

[mr_mister]

I remember the initial charge, I know Ntini had Oily Bugger (Ali Bacher) in his corner plus the whole dreaded political thing, he was the only black player in the Proteas team that stage.

There's an article from '99 where the.. I guess now alleged victim says how upset she was about the acquittal and pretty much says his status as the only black cricket player in SA's history helped him greatly in his acquittal.

On the other hand, it could have been his skin colour that lead to a rapid conviction in the first place. It's a doozy this one.

 

[Heboric]

There's an article from '99 where the.. I guess now alleged victim says how upset she was about the acquittal and pretty much says his status as the only black cricket player in SA's history helped him greatly in his acquittal.

On the other hand, it could have been his skin colour that lead to a rapid conviction in the first place. It's a doozy this one.

At least it was before social media....

 

[TheJediBrah]

He got real swole after he retired I remember seeing him on commentary I was like damn boy been hitting the rack

 

[cnerd123]

I never heard about this, but did some light research last night. Seems like there was no physical evidence of the claims, making it a he said/she said case.

Really murky stuff

 

[Smudge]

I think the whole point is there isn't a general consensus...

 

[Migara]

There's an article from '99 where the.. I guess now alleged victim says how upset she was about the acquittal and pretty much says his status as the only black cricket player in SA's history helped him greatly in his acquittal.

On the other hand, it could have been his skin colour that lead to a rapid conviction in the first place. It's a doozy this one.

Begs the question, was the victim white?

 

[StephenZA]

Begs the question, was the victim white?

No...

 

[Aritro]

I never heard about this, but did some light research last night. Seems like there was no physical evidence of the claims, making it a he said/she said case.

Really murky stuff

Did you see anything that explained why it was said to be a case with "overwhelming evidence"?

 

[StephenZA]

It was a very difficult one that... lots off issues in SA around gender based violence and he was a very high profile figure at the time. In effect it was a he said/ she said situation but they both admitted to what happened it was what led to everything that was in question.

They ended up in a bathroom stall together and half way through she started saying no... he literally pulled out swearing, never finished the act. Then gave her a ride home. She said he coerced her, he said she was willing and then when she said no he stopped. Whether he did coerce her because of who he was, whether he said to her things he should have not, whether he offered her money and then she changed her mind, nobody knows. Should he have been smarter about making sure she was willing. The whole thing was a very sordid affair. In effect it ended up being a case surrounding consent.

His initial guilty finding was over turned because there were many holes in her story that lead to the act, that made it dubious if she was being honest, also the investigating officer was found to have lied or at least misled and added things into his note book that later turned out to be false. But then who knows, because you may find you have a very good set of lawyers supporting Ntini and a poor prosecution. I hesitate to call him a rapist but also did not like the whole manner of his behaviour and you wonder how much he used his position, money and fame to influence her into some form of 'consent'.

It was the case that brought home to me the importance of consent... I think that too many people don't think about it much and its hugely important.

 

[StephenZA]

Just to add to this... he did deny what happened intially, which did not make him look any better. I don’t actually know if he ever went onto the stand. It really was sordid and always made me uncomfortable.

 

[vicleggie]

We don't know. Nothing else to say. None of us here are judge or jury.

Out of all the unjust things in the world to focus on, why focus on this alleged one? It's clearly very complicated, muddied and potentially politically/racially motivated.

 

[Dendarii]

I hesitate to call him a rapist but also did not like the whole manner of his behaviour and you wonder how much he used his position, money and fame to influence her into some form of 'consent'.

I seem to remember that he had a partner at the time, so regardless of what may have happened, he didn't come out of it looking good.

I know Ntini spoke about feeling isolated from the rest of the team which would have had to do with him being an outsider because of his race, but I can't help but wonder if this contributed to that as well. It doesn't mean that the others were all a bunch of angels, but some of them may have felt uncertain how to relate to him following this incident.

 

[sledger]

People generally have a very poor grasp/understanding of consent, but they don't like to think about it because it makes them feel uncomfortable. I mean as soon as words like "coerce" are brought into play that rather (strongly) suggests there was no consent even if "yes" was uttered.

 

[sledger]

Just had a quick look into this, and the judgment of the Appeal judge sounds really victim-blamey. Puts emphasis on the fact that the complainant didn't make it clear she was saying "no", and that she could have called out to others at the time of the incident, both of which are completely irrelevant.

 

[mr_mister]

We don't know. Nothing else to say. None of us here are judge or jury.

Out of all the unjust things in the world to focus on, why focus on this alleged one? It's clearly very complicated, muddied and potentially politically/racially motivated.

It interested me while reading his wiki last night, for a number of reasons. and I couldn't think of somewhere better to discuss it. I know it's an old case, but I thought some people might have information for me to consider, and Stephen has provided some

 

[StephenZA]

People generally have a very poor grasp/understanding of consent, but they don't like to think about it because it makes them feel uncomfortable. I mean as soon as words like "coerce" are brought into play that rather (strongly) suggests there was no consent even if "yes" was uttered.

It amazes me how much people use alcohol as an excuse with regards consent...

 

[vicleggie]

It interested me while reading his wiki last night, for a number of reasons. and I couldn't think of somewhere better to discuss it. I know it's an old case, but I thought some people might have information for me to consider, and Stephen has provided some

Brad McNamara.

 

[Shady Slim]

Begs the question, was the victim white?

it really doesnt