Curtly Ambrose vs Dale Steyn

[Starfighter]

Let's look at your trash more closely. His figures against Sri Lanka and West Indies are hardly representative of a career. One Test and 30 overs against Sri Lanka (1.06% of his total Test bowling career) and 1 Test in WI where he bowled 32 overs (1.13% of his total Test bowling career). His poor performance in Pakistan is undeniable but it was just 3 Tests. The man played 70 Tests (not to mention World Series) and there you are judging him on just 5 Tests. That's pathetic.
If you wish to be regarded as a rational member of CW you need to cease using miniscule samples of players' careers to denigrate their worth. Until then, as TJB says, no one will take you seriously.

Eh, he's been doing this for far longer than you've been around, to the point of even making up things that never happened. Can't stop him now.

 

[h_hurricane]

Another example of ill-informed opinion.

Did I quote my opinion or facts ? Please read it again.

1973 - injured, Torso in full cast, Played 2 Tests

Fair enough if it was the only example. It isn't right ?

1980 - 46 wickets @ 22.57

Exactly the point. Right in the middle of a purple patch, he does well against every one else yet gets found out in Pakistan.

43 wickets @ 17 against others. 3 wickets at 100 vs Pakistan.

This myth that he avoided certain tours needs to be addressed. Name the tours he allegedly avoided and check his certified and well documented medical conditions at the time.

When did I say this ? A clear case of reading between the words in line with one's prejudices.

 

[Line and Length]

Did I quote my opinion or facts ? Please read it again.


Fair enough if it was the only example. It isn't right ?



Exactly the point. Right in the middle of a purple patch, he does well against every one else yet gets found out in Pakistan.

43 wickets @ 17 against others. 3 wickets at 100 vs Pakistan.



When did I say this ? A clear case of reading between the words in line with one's prejudices.

Your opinion is based on isolated facts. At least you concede the injury factor of '73.

Re the '80 opinion, you are basing this on one series while ignoring others.

My final statement (re the myth of avoiding certain tours) is aimed at the general group of 'critics' who seem to enjoy belittling Lillee's achievements.

 

[Migara]

Let's look at your trash more closely. His figures against Sri Lanka and West Indies are hardly representative of a career. One Test and 30 overs against Sri Lanka (1.06% of his total Test bowling career) and 1 Test in WI where he bowled 32 overs (1.13% of his total Test bowling career). His poor performance in Pakistan is undeniable but it was just 3 Tests. The man played 70 Tests (not to mention World Series) and there you are judging him on just 5 Tests. That's pathetic.
If you wish to be regarded as a rational member of CW you need to cease using miniscule samples of players' careers to denigrate their worth. Until then, as TJB says, no one will take you seriously.

However, you guys were quick to judge Ashwin and Jadeja on numbers that "hardly represented a career". And that is pure hypocrisy.

One or ten it was against a minnow and he sucked. Only great bowler to suck a little more than Lillee against a minnow in their twilight years was Kapil Dev.

Hadlee at 39, much older than Lillee took 8/150 against Eng in his last match. Murali 8/191 against India. Bond 8/153, even Lillee himself after few months against Pakistan too 8/149. So the apologies given against Sri Lanka is hilarious and poorly formed. He sucked in subcontinent, and even cannot run though a minnow side on one of the best swing bowling conditions in the subcontinent (in Kandy).

The facts are facts.

 

[subshakerz]

However, you guys were quick to judge Ashwin and Jadeja on numbers that "hardly represented a career". And that is pure hypocrisy.

One or ten it was against a minnow and he sucked. Only great bowler to suck a little more than Lillee against a minnow in their twilight years was Kapil Dev.

Hadlee at 39, much older than Lillee took 8/150 against Eng in his last match. Murali 8/191 against India. Bond 8/153, even Lillee himself after few months against Pakistan too 8/149. So the apologies given against Sri Lanka is hilarious and poorly formed. He sucked in subcontinent, and even cannot run though a minnow side on one of the best swing bowling conditions in the subcontinent (in Kandy).

The facts are facts.

5 tests in WI and subcontinent is not enough to prove Lillee was a failure outside of ENA. Murali played 5 poor tests in Australia and his defenders still contend that is not enough of a sample.

Lillee deserves to be graded less than other ATG pacers because he was unproven in such conditions, not because he definitively failed.

 

[Migara]

5 tests in WI and subcontinent is not enough to prove Lillee was a failure outside of ENA. Murali played 5 poor tests in Australia and his defenders still contend that is not enough of a sample.

Lillee deserves to be graded less than other ATG pacers because he was unproven in such conditions, not because he definitively failed.

Murali played 5 poor tests in one country while Lillee had issues in three to four countries, which are not the same.

However, your stance makes sense than many in this thread.

 

[Line and Length]

However, you guys were quick to judge Ashwin and Jadeja on numbers that "hardly represented a career". And that is pure hypocrisy.

One or ten it was against a minnow and he sucked. Only great bowler to suck a little more than Lillee against a minnow in their twilight years was Kapil Dev.

Hadlee at 39, much older than Lillee took 8/150 against Eng in his last match. Murali 8/191 against India. Bond 8/153, even Lillee himself after few months against Pakistan too 8/149. So the apologies given against Sri Lanka is hilarious and poorly formed. He sucked in subcontinent, and even cannot run though a minnow side on one of the best swing bowling conditions in the subcontinent (in Kandy).

The facts are facts.

I accept the fact that Ashwin and Jadeja have come under similar scrutiny that you apply to Lillee and I can understand your attitude. Before going further, I am not one of "you guys" who were "quick to judge Ashwin and Jadeja". I prefer to judge any sportsmen on the achievements over an entire career while accepting that there will be natural peaks and troughs in performance.

Regarding your comments on Lillee's performance against Sri Lanka, you are judging him on a solitary Test.
In "the best swing bowling conditions in the subcontinent" Australia declared at 4 for 514 before running through the "minnows" twice. True, Lillee only took 3 wickets (and his fellow quick, Hogg, just 1) but it was the spinners (Yardley, Hogan and Border) who took 18 of the wickets to fall to bowlers. Seems to me it was a spinners' wicket rather than a swing bowlers' paradise.

 

[Xix2565]

Considering Lillee isn't the ATG in question here maybe this should be taken elsewhere?

 

[Line and Length]

Considering Lillee isn't the ATG in question here maybe this should be taken elsewhere?

Fair comment. Perhaps the Ambrose v Steyn discussion has run its course.

 

[Migara]

I accept the fact that Ashwin and Jadeja have come under similar scrutiny that you apply to Lillee and I can understand your attitude. Before going further, I am not one of "you guys" who were "quick to judge Ashwin and Jadeja". I prefer to judge any sportsmen on the achievements over an entire career while accepting that there will be natural peaks and troughs in performance.

Good on you.

Regarding your comments on Lillee's performance against Sri Lanka, you are judging him on a solitary Test.
In "the best swing bowling conditions in the subcontinent" Australia declared at 4 for 514 before running through the "minnows" twice. True, Lillee only took 3 wickets (and his fellow quick, Hogg, just 1) but it was the spinners (Yardley, Hogan and Border) who took 18 of the wickets to fall to bowlers. Seems to me it was a spinners' wicket rather than a swing bowlers' paradise.

Stats have it firmly against you. The pace bowling average in SL is 34. In Asgiriya it is 28.5. Massive difference. For spinners in Asgiriya it is 27, and SL as a whole 31. It clearly helps pacemen much better than any ground in SL.

This is what Vaas did in such conditions

This is Wasim and Waqar

You can do what ever with the pitch, but in Kandy it is the swing that kills. There are many more instances fast bowlers running through sides u=in Kandy, so your assumption is highly flawed.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Yes Asgiriya has always been pace-bowler friendly. Venkatesh Prasad took a 5fer there in our win in 01, Asif had that amazing 11fer, there was also a low scoring shootout vs Wi where darrenn powell took a cheap 5fer. Not sure how it was in the 80s tho. Probably has more to do with the overhead conditions in the are than the pitch itself.

 

[Line and Length]

This was a solitary test and the facts (successful bowlers in that Test) suggest that the wicket, for that Test, was more helpful to spin than pace. You say the Stats have it firmly against me. If I was saying Kandy was a spinners wicket and unhelpful for swing/pace then your stats would rebut that argument. However, and I'll say it again, this was a solitary Test and a scrutiny of the scorecard reveals that, for that particular Test, the most successful bowlers were spinners.
I'll accept your argument that certain wickets are more conducive to certain modes of bowling but there are always exception to that generalisation.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Good on you.

Stats have it firmly against you. The pace bowling average in SL is 34. In Asgiriya it is 28.5. Massive difference. For spinners in Asgiriya it is 27, and SL as a whole 31. It clearly helps pacemen much better than any ground in SL.

This is what Vaas did in such conditions

This is Wasim and Waqar

You can do what ever with the pitch, but in Kandy it is the swing that kills. There are many more instances fast bowlers running through sides u=in Kandy, so your assumption is highly flawed.

That's a whole lot of irrelevant information but still entertaining so not a total loss

L&L was explicitly talking about a particular Test, not the statistical history of that ground over the years of its service to Test cricket

Interesting and informative though, never knew Kandy was particularly pace-friendly

edit: just looked it up they haven't played there since 2007?

 

[ankitj]

This is Wasim and Waqar

Amazing clip this. Wasim and Waqar bowled 28.2 overs uninterrupted between only 2 of them and dismissed SL for 71. Superb viewing.

 

[Starfighter]

That's a whole lot of irrelevant information but still entertaining so not a total loss
L&L was explicitly talking about a particular Test, not the statistical history of that ground over the years of its service to Test cricket
Interesting and informative though, never knew Kandy was particularly pace-friendly

The kind of nuance that would fly right over Migara's head. Conditions can change drastically between matches - like the difference between the last two Melbourne Ashes tests. If it's a pitch where Tom Hogan and Bruce Yardley cleaned up, safe to say it was probably on the spin-friendly side.

Also with Wasim and Waqar in the early nineties you've got to consider the interface between the ball and the bowler as much as the ball and the ground.

edit: just looked it up they haven't played there since 2007?

Different ground now (Pallekele)

 

[TheJediBrah]

I had no idea Pallekele was part of Kandy lol

 

[subshakerz]

Murali played 5 poor tests in one country while Lillee had issues in three to four countries, which are not the same.

However, your stance makes sense than many in this thread.

I think it is debatable whether Lillee would have done better in the subcontinent if given more chances. Many pacers have a poor first series there, like Marshall and McGrath. And the pitches he played were unusally dead even by Pakistan standards.

I do think he could have been expected to be productive in the WI if he played more.

It is too simplistic to call anyone a failure in three countries based on 5 tests. Unproven yes.

 

[Calm_profit]

I think it is debatable whether Lillee would have done better in the subcontinent if given more chances. Many pacers have a poor first series there, like Marshall and McGrath. And the pitches he played were unusally dead even by Pakistan standards.

I do think he could have been expected to be productive in the WI if he played more.

It is too simplistic to call anyone a failure in three countries based on 5 tests. Unproven yes.

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Lillie actually did well in Windies during Packer era.

 

[Migara]

I had no idea Pallekele was part of Kandy lol

Pallekele is the new ground. SLC could not resolve the dispute with Trinity College Kandy (which Asgiriya ground belonged to), and went for a new facility at Pallekele.

 

[subshakerz]

Back on to the topic, Ambrose was particularly special overseas, with the best adjusted average among bowlers.

Curtly a foreigner in no land

A measure to judge how good a bowler is, especially overseas

www.espncricinfo.com

Fair to say that Ambrose edges out Steyn as an overseas bowler overall.

I still feel that posters are underestimating just how good Ambrose was at his peak. To be rated ahead of peak Waqar, Wasim and Bishop is amazing.