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CW's Ranking of All-Rounders (Tests)

B

Bolo.

International Captain
OverratedSanity said:
During his peak bowling years Sobers was picking up close to 4 wpm @28. Figures of a very good frontline specialist seamer with a proper specialist workload too.


I dont think Hadlee's batting was ever viewed as being as good as a proper test class batsman. Sobers is pretty unqiue in that sense. No one was as good in their secondary discipline.
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Plenty of players had better peaks in their secondary disciplines than Sobers.

This is not about comparing Sobers' batting to Hadlees bowling. If we pick overall player quality, Hadlee is underranked. If we pick balance, Sobers is overranked. These statements hold true even if you think the gap in their secondary disciplines is massive.
 
Lillian Thomson

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
Bolo. said:
He's obviously a better bowler than Hadlee is a bat, but 2.5 WPM at 34 is not getting you to number 1 if priorising balance the way a lot of the recent picks have been going. He's too high, or Hadlee is too low (or should just be excluded entirely). They clearly cant both be right if judged in a consistent way.
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That’s why I emphasised there was a period when Sobers was a world class bat and genuine Test class bowler. Hadlee was never a batsman at all, so they can’t be judged consistently. Sobers is rightfully number 1 and Hadlee too high.
 
B

Bolo.

International Captain
Lillian Thomson said:
That’s why I emphasised there was a period when Sobers was a world class bat and genuine Test class bowler. Hadlee was never a batsman at all, so they can’t be judged consistently. Sobers is rightfully number 1 and Hadlee too high.
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If we are judging off of quality of player, do you genuinely believe that someone like Kapil is a better player than Hadlee?

Or if we are emphasising balance, do you believe that Sobers had a higher bowling peak than all of Botham, Faulker, Imran, Miller etc had in their secondary discipline?
 
Lillian Thomson

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
Bolo. said:
If we are judging off of quality of player, do you genuinely believe that someone like Kapil is a better player than Hadlee?

Or if we are emphasising balance, do you believe that Sobers had a higher bowling peak than all of Botham, Faulker, Imran, Miller etc had in their secondary discipline?
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Sobers, Miller, Kapil and Botham are all rounders, Hadlee isn’t. I’m not balancing off anyone or anything.
 
B

Bolo.

International Captain
Lillian Thomson said:
Sobers, Miller, Kapil and Botham are all rounders, Hadlee isn’t. I’m not balancing off anyone or anything.
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Then there is no debate. I've mentioned excluding Hadlee as an option a couple of times now. I think its pretty generous to call him an AR. But if we accept him as an AR it should not be at 9, at least not as long as we have guys like Sobers and Kallis in the top 3.
 
Lillian Thomson

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
Sobers is clearly number 1 and Hadlee is not an all rounder. Whether Kallis would have made a fourth seamer if he couldn’t bat I don’t know.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
Lillian Thomson said:
Sobers had a period of about eight years where he was genuine Test class first or second change seamer and an accurate if not always penetrating spinner. Hadlee isn’t a batsman at all.
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Hadlee averaged 33 in his last 46 tests. By 1980s standards that could get you in a side as a lower order bat.
 
The Sean

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
I get the argument about true all-rounders being able to hold down a spot in the side in either discipline, though that is very much dependent on the specific team in question too.

As for Hadlee, I suppose I am a softer judge than others on here because if a bloke is spending a decade or more operating as the near-GOAT level fast bowler while simultaneously averaging 30 with the bat from number 7 or 8, I reckon I'm calling him an all-rounder.
 
CricAddict

CricAddict

Cricketer Of The Year
The Sean said:
I get the argument about true all-rounders being able to hold down a spot in the side in either discipline, though that is very much dependent on the specific team in question too.

As for Hadlee, I suppose I am a softer judge than others on here because if a bloke is spending a decade or more operating as the near-GOAT level fast bowler while simultaneously averaging 30 with the bat from number 7 or 8, I reckon I'm calling him an all-rounder.
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Which player can hold a spot in either discipline in a side? Barely a couple. I don`t think that argument is valid.

An all-rounder is someone who can provide balance to the team by being both a good 7th batsman and a good 5th bowler a.k.a The Answer.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
CricAddict said:
Which player can hold a spot in either discipline in a side? Barely a couple. I don`t think that argument is valid.

An all-rounder is someone who can provide balance to the team by being both a good 7th batsman and a good 5th bowler a.k.a The Answer.
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Yup thats my stance as well. As long as your team is consistently expecting you to contribute with bat and ball, you are an AR
 
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