CW's Ranking of All-Rounders (Tests)

[Nikhil99.99]

Kallis

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Lara isn't an allrounder.

So Cairns is better AR, yet he is not better cricketer.
Kapil, Botham and Miller consistently threatened opposition bowlers and destroyed their plans with impactful batting.
Hadlee wasn't same league in this regard. Allround impact was lesser compared to other 3. ( Lara was an extreme example )

I am not sure, who is best ODI cricketer among Jayasuriya, Klusner and Pollock.. But I know best AR is Klusner.

 

[ankitj]

I just decide who is qualified as an all-rounder and who isn't - binary call. Once I have the qualified list I rank them in order of their greatness without worrying about their roundedness. Hence Hadlee right behind Sobers and Imran.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Glad to see that baseless myth put to rest once and for all.

Imran scored 4/6 centuries between 1987 and 1990

 

[mr_mister]

Miller

 

[OverratedSanity]

Imran scored 4/6 centuries between 1987 and 1990

The hundred he scored in 1987 in England was in a series he also took 21 wickets in and was man of the series. Disingenuous to pretend this was in a phase when he was only a batsman like he was for the most part in 88-90

 

[subshakerz]

So Cairns is better AR, yet he is not better cricketer.
Kapil, Botham and Miller consistently threatened opposition bowlers and destroyed their plans with impactful batting.
Hadlee wasn't same league in this regard. Allround impact was lesser compared to other 3. ( Lara was an extreme example )

I am not sure, who is best ODI cricketer among Jayasuriya, Klusner and Pollock.. But I know best AR is Klusner.

You either are an allrounder or you are not. Lara isn't. It's like comparing Lara to McGrath as a bowler.

The impact of Hadlee as an ATG bowler plus useful lower order bat exceeds that as the combo allrounders like Botham/Kapil, for the simple reason that the pure allrounders have to occupy a specialist spot in the lineup. If they are batting at 5/6 or 8 they would be taking a space that is reserved for a specialist bat or bowler, meaning that any extra impact they give in their other skill is offset by the loss of impact the team would have had if the specialist was in that position. Whereas Hadlee serves fine as a pure bowler and any extra impact he gives as lower order bat is profit.

In an ATG lineup, Imran and Hadlee are pretty much the perfect options for late order as Sobers and Kallis are for the middle order.

Of course, this also depends on the makeup of your side, but I am assuming we are talking about ATG level for these disciplines.

Generally, in cricket, we opt for specialists over bits'n pieces, and the same goes for ATG level.

 

[subshakerz]

I just decide who is qualified as an all-rounder and who isn't - binary call. Once I have the qualified list I rank them in order of their greatness without worrying about their roundedness. Hence Hadlee right behind Sobers and Imran.

Everyone can have their own definition, but for me if your team consistently plays you as in the 4-5 bowling options and in the top 6/7 positions of the batting lineup, you are an allrounder. That means your team expects you to contribute as a mainstay bowling and batting option.

If you aren't bowled almost every match, then essentially you are a part-time bowler like Carl Hooper. And if you play no. 8 and above almost all the time, you are at most a useful tailender like Warne and Akram.

There are cases like Hadlee, Pollock and Ashwin who are near tailenders but barely qualify IMO as allrounders as they did enough work up the order.

 

[Bitmap]

Miller

 

[harsh.ag]

Miller

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

You either are an allrounder or you are not. Lara isn't.

The impact of Hadlee as an ATG bowler plus useful lower order bat exceeds that as the combo allrounders, for the simple reason that the pure allrounders have to occupy a specialist spot in the lineup. If they are batting at 5/6 or 8 they would be taking a space that is reserved for a specialist bat or bowler, meaning that any extra impact they give in their other skill is offset by the loss of impact the team would have had if the specialist was in that position. Whereas Hadlee serves fine as a pure bowler and any extra impact he gives as lower order bat is profit.

Of course, this also depends on the makeup of your side, but I am assuming we are talking about ATG level for these disciplines.

Generally, in cricket, we opt for specialists over bits'n pieces, and the same goes for ATG level.

Kapil and Botham were the best bowlers in their team.
In an Imaginary world 11, they would be 5th bowlers but still there is no proper alternative ATG bowler + Botham / Kapil / Miller level batting (Bar Procter ).
A 5 th ATG bowler adds strength to bowling, but a proper allrounder means more depth in batting. 5th ATG bowler will be an overkill at the cost of Batting depth.

Reality
Kapil / Botham were the specialists + Batting ability

Fantasy
Kapil / Botham/ Miller - better choices as AR than Hadlee and Imran.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

The hundred he scored in 1987 in England was in a series he also took 21 wickets in and was man of the series. Disingenuous to pretend this was in a phase when he was only a batsman like he was for the most part in 88-90

Point is he scored just 2 hundreds in 13 calendar years before 1987.

 

[subshakerz]

Point is he scored just 2 hundreds in 13 calendar years before 1987.

Why 1987 when he was a great bowler until 1988? And he hardly played any cricket in his first few years.

 

[subshakerz]

Kapil and Botham were the best bowlers in their team.
In an Imaginary world 11, they would be 5th bowlers but still there is no proper alternative ATG bowler + Botham / Kapil / Miller level batting (Bar Procter ).
A 5 th ATG bowler adds strength to bowling, but a proper allrounder means more depth in batting. 5th ATG bowler will be an overkill at the cost of Batting depth.

Reality
Kapil / Botham were the specialists + Batting ability

Fantasy
Kapil / Botham/ Miller - better choices as AR than Hadlee and Imran.

It won't work that way. If Botham/Kapil are 5th bowling options, they will have to bat at 6/7, meaning a long tail and only 5 specialist bats. And they are not good enough to be in the first four bowling options.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Why 1987 when he was a great bowler until 1988? And he hardly played any cricket in his first few years.

Thats just 2 years.
No longevity.

 

[trundler]

The hundred he scored in 1987 in England was in a series he also took 21 wickets in and was man of the series. Disingenuous to pretend this was in a phase when he was only a batsman like he was for the most part in 88-90

And another of his tons came in a match in which he took 10 ****ing wickets. And yet somehow this translates to worse than Kapil's 2 more centuries in 43 more games, a guy who took 1 fewer wicket per match at an average barely under 30. And also Mike Procter's glorious batting average of 18 (??????).

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

It won't work that way. If Botham/Kapil are 5th bowling options, they will have to bat at 6/7, meaning a long tail and only 5 specialist bats. And they are not good enough to be in the first four bowling options.

5+wk
7. Kapil
8. Hadlee
9. Akram

Or
7. Botham
8. Davidson
9. Marshall

I dont see much issues there

 

[trundler]

Reality:

Imran had the greatest peak of any bowler, ever whilst being a handy batsman and then somehow extended his career past by a career ending injury by playing as a specialist batsman for a few more years.

Fantasy:

Imran bat bad when bowl gud, bowl bad when bar gud.

 

[HookShot]

Best-Ever Test Bowling ICC Player Rankings

10

911

Ian Botham

911 v India, 19/02/1980

43

877

Kapil Dev

877 v Pakistan, 19/01/1980

All Time ICC Test Bowling Rankings : Best Ever Test Bowlers

ICC Player Rankings

www.relianceiccrankings.com

Not saying that the ICC rankings are the be all, end all of stats.

But peak Botham and Kapil Dev (1980 +/-) were pretty awesome bowlers.

 

[trundler]

Best-Ever Test Bowling ICC Player Rankings

10

911

Ian Botham

911 v India, 19/02/1980

43

877

Kapil Dev

877 v Pakistan, 19/01/1980

All Time ICC Test Bowling Rankings : Best Ever Test Bowlers

ICC Player Rankings

www.relianceiccrankings.com

Not saying that the ICC rankings are the be all, end all of stats.

But peak Botham and Kapil Dev (1980 +/-) were pretty awesome bowlers.

The scale is logarithmic so the higher up you are, the greater the difference between points. Imran has the greatest peak since Barnes, even above *Murali*. The idea that his batting and bowling phases were mutually exclusive is patently nonsense because for a good decade he was averaging 13 with the ball while batting at 7 and sometimes 6/8.