England (and Wales) gloom, doom and recriminations thread

[cricketsavant]

Who says Broad and Anderson can't play five Tests in a row? That was a dumb selectorial decision, not their choice. They should be picked as long as they are the best bowlers, which they are, and both should have played at least the first three Tests on this tour. Both are obviously fitter than eg. Robinson despite the age difference. And both can still bowl mid-130s when they choose to.

It would be lovely to have Archer and Stone back fit and ready to play long series but realistically I think we need to plan for a future where that won't happen. Archer has already been out for the best part of two years.

Sam Curran is a trier but is not Test class with either bat or ball. Nor is Bess.

Jimmy has a pretty messy injury history and has returned from several injuries in recent seasons alone. Broad's pace is so down, imagine what would happen if he played a 3rd test in a row. In all honesty, they can't hold such spots forever, they should retire or be dropped.

 

[social]

Foakes as captain

Root bats 3

Crawley 4

Malan, Bess not to play again

Hameed, Burns back to CC and not picked unless they make significant changes to their techniques and follow it up with sustained periods of success

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

I think Sam Cook could do a job for England if he was given a chance. There's an obsession that the seamers have to be bowling over 140km/h. It isn't necessary - this is another one of those "we need to plan for the next Ashes" pieces of bullshit. Cook has incredible bowling stats and he can swing the ball and he can put it where he wants to put it. Get him in early and give him a run and he can pick up more skills along the way - much like Anderson did. He's only 24 - plenty to build on there in my opinion.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

And how is this thread only 22 pages long, even if it was only created in August. These are English cricket dark ages (once more).

 

[The Sean]

It might be - what's the name of that Ray Bradbury short story about the time travelling dinosaur hunters and the butterfly?

A Sound of Thunder.

Otherwise known as that Simpsons Treehouse of Horror where the toaster becomes a time machine.

 

[grecian]

Jimmy has a pretty messy injury history and has returned from several injuries in recent seasons alone. Broad's pace is so down, imagine what would happen if he played a 3rd test in a row. In all honesty, they can't hold such spots forever, they should retire or be dropped.

Utter nonsense, you pick your best bowlers regardless of age, they are our best bowlers. Robinson looks much more unfit than them, and they're less injury prone than Archer, Wood, Stone, Mahmood, and Overton.

 

[Jarquis]

For the first time in the longest time it just doesn’t really feel like there’s a lot to be excited about - young blokes just haven’t kicked on. Nobody is putting up great numbers in domestic cricket.

Pope and Lawrence have potential in my eyes and it’s really disappointing they aren’t quite there yet but there’s nobody kicking around to bridge the gap.

what we’d do for a player like Bell or Trott these days; or even a Compton or Carberry

 

[grecian]

For the first time in the longest time it just doesn’t really feel like there’s a lot to be excited about - young blokes just haven’t kicked on. Nobody is putting up great numbers in domestic cricket.

Pope and Lawrence have potential in my eyes and it’s really disappointing they aren’t quite there yet but there’s nobody kicking around to bridge the gap.

what we’d do for a player like Bell or Trott these days; or even a Compton or Carberry

Agreed, there's just no combination of batting that makes our top order good, putting Root 3 would possibly help, but tbh he averages about 10 less there than 4, so it seems to be changing the one thing that works for us.

Think Crawley has to play as he at least looks like a talent, but he isn't really a top-order bat in Test cricket. I'dmention Abell, but even as a Somerset fan I'm not sure, and he's been working his way down Somerset's order, and has injury problems. Bowling could mean we don't go in without a spinner every second match which would be a bonus.

So my side to play the Windies would be.

Crawley
Burns (who the **** else is there)
Lawrence
Root
Stokes
Bairstow
Foakes
Robinson
Wood
Leach
Broad/Anderson

Yeah it's ****, but so is everything else.

I tell you what is more of a problem than injuries to Broad/Anderson, is Stokes rarely being fully fit to bowl and bat. TBH I would be tempted to let him rest this series and hopefully come back fully fit for the Summer. Maybe that way we could give Abell a game.

 

[SteveNZ]

Jimmy has a pretty messy injury history and has returned from several injuries in recent seasons alone. Broad's pace is so down, imagine what would happen if he played a 3rd test in a row. In all honesty, they can't hold such spots forever, they should retire or be dropped.

I honestly don't get this on Anderson. I feel like it's an age thing - people expect him to be falling off a cliff, but he's still operating in the mid 130s and bowling decently long spells, and taking wickets. 39 at 21 last year, and 23s in the Ashes (1.79 RPO too, if that's relevant).

Then you had Michael Vaughan, who wanted to retire Anderson but in the same breath mentioned that he could be England's best bowler for the next two years...but the side was better off without him. Is he really that big of a C that even if he continues to average low 20s, the side is better off without him? Because there's no one below him who is smashing the door down to get in - there might be some decent options, but remembering Chris Woakes played 3 Ashes Tests and Craig Overton is the other squad member. I wouldn't be so quick if I was England.

 

[grecian]

I honestly don't get this on Anderson. I feel like it's an age thing - people expect him to be falling off a cliff, but he's still operating in the mid 130s and bowling decently long spells, and taking wickets. 39 at 21 last year, and 23s in the Ashes (1.79 RPO too, if that's relevant).

Then you had Michael Vaughan, who wanted to retire Anderson but in the same breath mentioned that he could be England's best bowler for the next two years...but the side was better off without him. Is he really that big of a C that even if he continues to average low 20s, the side is better off without him? Because there's no one below him who is smashing the door down to get in - there might be some decent options, but remembering Chris Woakes played 3 Ashes Tests and Craig Overton is the other squad member. I wouldn't be so quick if I was England.

It's all on age, there's no other reason, he's not unpopular in the dressing room that I know of. Again if everyone else wasn't injury prone or not half as good, I'd understand. Yet to say Archer should be first name on the teamsheet is nice, but yeah know a tad impractical as he's broken more times than Emma Radacunu ATM.

In fact all of them are less injury-prone than Jimmeh. The only C in that convo I can see is Vaughan himself.

I do think Overton should get more games over-seas than Woakes, but again he's got stress-fracture issues and isn't as good as Broad or Anderson.

Mahmood also incredibly injury prone and probably slower (I enjoy his wiki page saying he bowls up to 90mph and compared to Waqar Younis, as it's clearly written by someone that's never seen him bowl) than Jimmeh, not as accurate and not as good. Yet hey he's young.

 

[Jarquis]

With how **** our batting is Woakes should be a replacement for Stokes overseas more so than Anderson/Broad

 

[grecian]

With how **** our batting is Woakes should be a replacement for Stokes overseas more so than Anderson/Broad

Who suggested that? I was suggesting Abell. Woakes averages 20 with the bat away from home. In fact should never play an away Test again imho.

 

[jcas0167]

Feel a bit for England. It’s been a hell of a schedule for them over the past year, 15 tests all against the top 3 ranked sides in the world all while MIQ requirements have made playing cricket an utterly miserable experience. Very hard for such an inexperienced batting lineup to come through that without some serious scars.

On top of that it seems like insane scheduling that they go to the West Indies in a month.

 

[jcas0167]

Agreed. Australia had no interest in doing so. Worse still, England played the wrong bowlers in the wrong Tests at time whilst they were trying to be cute. When you're up against it, as England always were going to, you play your best line-up until a) they physically can't go any more b) the series is done (ie it's 3-0 or whatever)



Not Crawley at the top of the order? I know he didn't deliver but at least he looks like he's got a technique to play Test cricket. Doesn't look optimistic when some of those guys you're suggesting average just over 30 in the Championship. Plus Hameed who looks as much of a walking wicket as Sibley and co before him

Based on his effort last night and century against NZ last year I would stick with Burns too in the medium term unless there is someone smashing the door down.

 

[morgieb]

How I view the current English set-up:

* Burns - can do well in the right circumstances but in general his technique isn't up to scratch. Can grind a few runs but that's about it. Only thing that might save him is lack of other good options. IDEALLY DUMP (but might have to keep in the short-term).
* Hameed - his game just looks shot. Seems miles off Test class and was clearly picked a bit too prematurely. Needs at least a good couple of seasons in county cricket before returning. DUMP.
* Malan - batted well early on, but faded away pretty quickly. Tries hard but doesn't have enough class for Tests I feel, and his record is England in general isn't good enough. DUMP.
* Root - England's best bat of my lifetime. You might have question marks about his captaincy, but his spot is not in doubt. KEEP.
* Stokes - still a key contributor, and will be better with more time into him. KEEP.
* Pope - has runs on the board at county level but his game just seems a total mess. That dismissal last night wasn't one of a top-level batsman. Poor against spin too. Best thing England can do is just let him dominate county cricket for a year and hope that his game recovers. DUMP.
* Buttler - has had a lot of Tests and really hasn't done much of significance. Doesn't seem to have much confidence to play his game. There are better options. DUMP.
* Woakes - tough to say. Fantastic player at home, very bad away from it. Is that enough to justify a place in the side? Depends on balance I guess. Personally given England have other options I'd look elsewhere, though he is still worth having around as depth. DUMP FROM FIRST XI.
* Wood - bowled with genuine hurry up heat, and seems to be fitter now. I still seem a bit dubious about his chances on less bouncy wickets, but maybe the Wagnerball meme might start to work? KEEP.
* Robinson - clearly the long-term hope for English bowling, though would want to get fitter. KEEP.
* Leach - hard to say. Arguably still England's best spinner but the ease of which Australia attacked him should worry England fans. Still I don't think his treatment in recent years from the English selectors has been right and the other options don't look obviously better. KEEP?
* Broad - still one of England's best bowlers, the question here comes down to 1. how long you think he has left and 2. does he have the right attitude going forward. Those are questions I don't feel prepared to answer.
* Anderson - as above.
* Crawley - still needs a bit of work but there is something there, has the style to succeed in Tests. Besides, it's not like there's much depth in his position. KEEP.
* Bairstow - I have been criticial of Bairstow but to be fair to him he was good in his few chances in this series. Is it just a one-off? Maybe, but given the state of England's middle order he should be given another crack at least in the short-term. KEEP.
* Billings - has a bit of spruik but I feel like there's better options, and the shot he played last night wasn't one you should see from a Test batsman. DUMP.

So England's Best XI:

Burns (I guess?)
Crawley
-
Root
Stokes
Bairstow
-
Woakes/Wood
Robinson
Leach?
Broad/Anderson

So you need one more top-order bat + one more middle-order bat.

Those that could be options:

* Lawrence - played a few Tests already. Didn't dominate but looked like there was something there. Definitely one to watch.
* Yates - not a fantastic FC record yet but had a good 2021, and from those who've seen him they think he has a decent Test game. Probably needs more seasoning?
* Bohannon - good FC record. Haven't seen him bat but those who have rate him. Did solid in the Lions match. Should be considered.
* Livingstone - decent FC record, has a nice game. Can bowl a bit too. Definitely worth considering especially on wickets where you don't think you need a specialist quick.
* Foakes - the best pure keeper in England (and arguably the world), and a pretty handy bat too. Maybe a bit limited against the best seam attacks, but has to be in the side on slower decks at the very least.

England do have a fair bit of pace-bowling depth to complement the side even if Archer and Stone are perma-crocked, so that's nice. IMO the likes of Mahmood, Fisher, Cook and Carse should be looked at for potential call-ups depending on the situation.

For an extra spinner, is Matt Parkinson likely to succeed at Test level? I think a wrist-spinner if equal in quality to the finger-spinner is a better option away from turners and I feel like England don't seem to have a heap of faith in Leach. His batting and fielding is a problem but I think his batting at least could be hidden.

 

[grecian]

I get the Parkinson hype, but just feel he'll be best served as 2nd spinner, and just give Leach a run of games, the West Indies and this Summer, if he's not looking like a good enough option after going along on decent wickets for spin (and yes England wickets are decent for English spinners), than Parkinson can come in hopefully with a couple of games under his belt to be first choice

It's amusing we've hit this discussion about how badly Ali was treated, when basically every England spinner is generally treated pish, including Swann who didn't play because Fletcher saw him as a ****, which undoubtedly he is, but the best Spin bowling **** we've had in decades.

Oh and Parkinson makes Leach look like Lara with the bat, not that I'm one to believe that should be a main reason for either being picked.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Bohannon is only 24? Looks about 50 tbh


Still, seems decently talented though

 

[social]

One of the great certainties when it comes to cricket is that there’s always someone else out there

Rory Burns is 31, has played 32 tests and averages 30 with the bat

IMO, he will need a dramatic technical overhaul (grip, backlift & footwork) to improve those numbers

IIRC, he’s also a primary offender when it comes to dropped catches

That’s a pretty low bar when it comes to looking for options

 

[Gnske]

Crawley
Banton
Bairstow
Root
Billings
Stokes
Buttler
Garton
Mills
Wood
Parkinson

Go all in. There's no hope left.

 

[grecian]

One of the great certainties when it comes to cricket is that there’s always someone else out there

Rory Burns is 31, has played 32 tests and averages 30 with the bat

IMO, he will need a dramatic technical overhaul (grip, backlift & footwork) to improve those numbers

IIRC, he’s also a primary offender when it comes to dropped catches

That’s a pretty low bar when it comes to looking for options

WE have tried almost everyone else and they are worse, we have hit the lowest bar imaginable with batting. I still don't think this is the worst English outfit I've seen as we have Root, Stokes and some good bowling, but for the top-three it's without doubt the worst situation ever.