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The English First Class Competition - a blank canvas...

Dazinho

School Boy/Girl Captain
Evening. There's been a lot of talk about the County Championship's 'fitness for purpose' in the light of declining English performance in the long form of the game (particularly but not exclusively with the bat). This prompted a random thought on my way home from work.

A year or two ago I remember posting what on reflection might have been a thread that was approaching the problem from the wrong end. I asked "should the winners of the minor counties replace the bottom side in Division 2?" and the consensus seemed to be that it was simply not practical, that the parallels with the GM Vauxhall Conference and Division 4 in football were a tad false, even if it was a 'nice' idea in theory. Fair point well made.

I reflected on what this was probably getting at, namely that one of the weaknesses of the current county format is the real risk of talent in certain geographical parts of England and Wales having 'nowhere to go' and 'no obvious home' therefore drifting into club cricket or giving up the sport altogether. Large parts of the country don't have a first class county in place to naturally offer young players a shot at progression and improvement and although there's an answer to the effect of 'find your nearest one' it isn't always as straightforward as that.

I don't know what the gap is between 'good club cricket' and Minor Counties stuff but in many cases I can't imagine it being that huge, nor can the standard of coaching, facilities etc be a great improvement in a lot of cases.

So this got me musing...if you were starting with a blank canvas what would you design in terms of the English First Class competition? I'd be surprised if many people answered to the effect of what we have and my own thinking was probably something based on regions rather than counties. Another random thought that popped into my grey matter was...what on earth happened to outgrounds? A stipulation of this competition could be that the county only plays half of its matches at its 'main' ground and the other half across its regional base. This would give new people exposure to the game and a sense of representation they haven't previously had.

Something like this has been done (albeit tentatively) in the newer one day competitions but there's a lot of history there that I appreciate many will be proud of - I'd just appreciate some thoughtful, imaginative and critical (if needs be) answers to the question posed here. Many Thanks.
 

Chubb

International Regular
I don't necessarily think the number of counties is the problem. The lack of cricket in state schools and reliance on private schools and/or cricket families is the problem ... but I won't go into that again.

10 sides would be sufficient if you were really going to scrap the county system entirely. Bristol, Cardiff, Southampton, Norf London (catering for Essex/East Anglia), Sarf London (catering for Kent, Surrey, Middlesex etc), Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle/Durham, Birmingham and maybe Nottingham or Leicester.

There is no way Cornwall, Devon and Somerset would be given a side if a restructure happened, which is a shame for those of us from there. Just don't have enough people. We are generally expected to support Bristol.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
I don't necessarily think the number of counties is the problem. The lack of cricket in state schools and reliance on private schools and/or cricket families is the problem ... but I won't go into that again.

10 sides would be sufficient if you were really going to scrap the county system entirely. Bristol, Cardiff, Southampton, Norf London (catering for Essex/East Anglia), Sarf London (catering for Kent, Surrey, Middlesex etc), Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle/Durham, Birmingham and maybe Nottingham or Leicester.

There is no way Cornwall, Devon and Somerset would be given a side if a restructure happened, which is a shame for those of us from there. Just don't have enough people. We are generally expected to support Bristol.
I think rather than the exact makeup of the ten or however many sides, the important thing would be ensuring natural pathways to those teams. Cornwall not having a team isn't necessarily a problem if a talented kid from there has roughly as much chance of getting picked up by Bristol than a kid from Bristol itself. It's a hard thing to pull off in England.
 

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
You're never going to be able to dump the counties due to vested interest and the fact that counties bring the fans.

I guess you could do a South Africa and have a 4-day franchise comp over the top and reduce county cricket back to 3-day FC comps. I suspect that's the only way you could realistically get things to happen.

Then, perhaps in a generation, the counties can gradually fall to the wayside.
 

Dazinho

School Boy/Girl Captain
I think rather than the exact makeup of the ten or however many sides, the important thing would be ensuring natural pathways to those teams. Cornwall not having a team isn't necessarily a problem if a talented kid from there has roughly as much chance of getting picked up by Bristol than a kid from Bristol itself. It's a hard thing to pull off in England.
This was what I was getting at - and yeah Devon/Cornwall was the first geographical reason that sprang to mind for whatever reason.
The county game ensures that there are a lot of regions in the Uk where that natural pathway doesn't exist and I wonder how much talent has been lost to this unfortunate fact.
 

Spikey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
just wondering, did county ever actually get players properly ready for test cricket? I mean, it stayed as a 3 day comp long after tests in England moved on from 3 days.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
just wondering, did county ever actually get players properly ready for test cricket? I mean, it stayed as a 3 day comp long after tests in England moved on from 3 days.
Hard to imagine that if it didn't exist and the best players just got called up from league cricket that they wouldn't have been signficantly less prepared, so it's doing something. It's all a matter of degree really.
 

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
It's not that long since cricketers from all over the world used to come to County Cricket as some kind of finishing school for Test cricket. Less so Australians, but young West Indians and South Africans particularly. Dale Steyn stunk up the joint for Essex. And then you'd have proper international cricketers plying their trade. Essex had Mark Waugh, Allan Border, Saleem Malik. All quality batsmen. Other teams had more notable names. Now they only come for the hit and giggle, in the main.
 

Spikey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Hard to imagine that if it didn't exist and the best players just got called up from league cricket that they wouldn't have been signficantly less prepared, so it's doing something. It's all a matter of degree really.
but that's the same as today, is it not?

I kinda want some old **** ex player to write a passionate article saying that the best solution is to move county back to 3 days
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
but that's the same as today, is it not?

I kinda want some old **** ex player to write a passionate article saying that the best solution is to move county back to 3 days
Yeah I don't think it's really any different now other than the declining amount of overseas players diluting the standard.
 

Flem274*

123/5
I think making conditions a bit more batsman friendly and trying to attract the best overseas pros again would help. A lot less test cricket used to be played, so a lot of the best players in the world would show up for countys etc

Young English batsmen facing the likes of Cummins, Bumrah, Rabada and KJ on pitches where their fate is already decided will do wonders for them in the long run. County Cricket died when post knee injury James Franklin and Jesse Ryder became genuine strike bowlers.
 

kevinw

State Captain
If counties didn't exist and we were starting from a blank sheet of paper, then six regional sides playing ten games per season would be ideal. This four day comp would run between June and August, and in theory at least, the standard would be higher, and the weather and pitches better.

In reality, it'll just be tinkering that makes little difference. The schedule may shift, changes to the divisional structure may happen - or some kind of 'play off' system that allows a streamlined format of four day cricket - but the counties won't vote themselves out of existence.
 

WICFan

State 12th Man
After reading the opinions of the likes of Kevin Pietersen, Beefy and Athers, I'd agree with Athers and that is to change to 3 divisions of 6 with the 10 games spread out as evenly as possible over the course of the season.
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
The problem with 2 or 3 divisions is that half or two thirds of the players are not playing at the highest level, so this still isn't preparing them for test cricket. Obviously we can't pretend that the counties don't exist, and they aren't going to vote themselves out of existence, so I've always proposed a regional league - say 10 teams - with the counties playing at a lower level without their best players who are in the regional league. Promotion and relegation wouldn't be fair in that structure, so maybe the counties play each other once in one division. Or maybe split them and the minor counties into two separate divisions, say north and south. I would still use the counties for the one-day competitions. Get rid of the Hundred, and reduce the number of group matches in the Twenty 20 competition. Make sure that the longer format regional league and as much of the county longer games are played in the summer instead of spring and autumn.
 

kevinw

State Captain
The problem with 2 or 3 divisions is that half or two thirds of the players are not playing at the highest level, so this still isn't preparing them for test cricket. Obviously we can't pretend that the counties don't exist, and they aren't going to vote themselves out of existence, so I've always proposed a regional league - say 10 teams - with the counties playing at a lower level without their best players who are in the regional league. Promotion and relegation wouldn't be fair in that structure, so maybe the counties play each other once in one division. Or maybe split them and the minor counties into two separate divisions, say north and south. I would still use the counties for the one-day competitions. Get rid of the Hundred, and reduce the number of group matches in the Twenty 20 competition. Make sure that the longer format regional league and as much of the county longer games are played in the summer instead of spring and autumn.
I would support 3x regional divisions of six teams, with the group winner and best placed runner up playing off SFs/F in September. You'd hope at least that the cream would rise to the crop by the play offs. With so many counties and so many pros, it's easy for complacency and mediocrity to kick in. But as I said, sorting out the schedule and conditions is easier than fixing that.
 

chris.hinton

International Captain
I would have a Premier League of 6 counties. With the other 12 into 2 regional or equal groups

All counties would play 10 matches. 1 county will get relegated and the winners of the 2nd tiers 2 groups will play off for the right to be in the Premier League.

Would focus on having games as occasions and at key points of the summer and ensure that countries will produce the best possible pitches. Harder due to schedule but i would like as many England players to be playing.

T20 I would like to see as the same but I would start it earlier but keep Finals day as the key day in the schedule just before Bank Holiday Monday in August.

Would also like to see the return of the "Natwest" Trophy with the following taking part

18 First Class Counties
20 Minor Countries
Scotland, Ireland, Holland (A sides?)
The return of the Unicorns

Also a North and South competition for 50 overs (8 matches) with straight final. Abolish the Hundred and try and jazz up the T20.
 

Dazinho

School Boy/Girl Captain
I would have a Premier League of 6 counties. With the other 12 into 2 regional or equal groups

All counties would play 10 matches. 1 county will get relegated and the winners of the 2nd tiers 2 groups will play off for the right to be in the Premier League.

Would focus on having games as occasions and at key points of the summer and ensure that countries will produce the best possible pitches. Harder due to schedule but i would like as many England players to be playing.

T20 I would like to see as the same but I would start it earlier but keep Finals day as the key day in the schedule just before Bank Holiday Monday in August.

Would also like to see the return of the "Natwest" Trophy with the following taking part

18 First Class Counties
20 Minor Countries
Scotland, Ireland, Holland (A sides?)
The return of the Unicorns

Also a North and South competition for 50 overs (8 matches) with straight final. Abolish the Hundred and try and jazz up the T20.
of all the 'real world' suggestions I've heard this is the best, but with a couple of caveats.

1) the Premier League sides get more ECB money specifically SO they can buy the best players.
2) there's an understanding that if you play in the Premier League you ARE more likely to get picked by England.
3) a genius coach/mananger will rock up at a Division One/Championship side and either a) make clever signings or b) nurture the youth policy so 5-6 top level players come through at once, get them to the Premier League and keep them there.

In this context the Premier League HAS to be an elite competition, consisting of England players, wannabe England players and top foreign talent (3-4 per side, which is the right balance IMO).

The second tier would be a great breeding ground for any emerging talent to be snapped up by a top EPL side or if a team of them emerged, to replace the worst EPL team and stay there.

The counties would stay in existence.

And we'd have a preliminary round of the Natwest where Cheshire vs Suffolk would be on television. Only once a year but well worth it. 20 Minor Counties would leave 32 under your format, so let's go for it...

Great post and really imaginative - thanks...
 

tony p

State Regular
One division of 18 counties, play each team once, get rid of the HUNDRED.
One 4 day match a week, 1 either T20 or 50 over match a week (Two days off a week) (the counties are in two groups of 9 for limited overs cricket, so that's 8 matches per comp, top 4 in each comp go to finals)

Have September for the T20 & 50 overs finals days, which includes QF's, SF'S on separate days.
 

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