Best team since Waugh/ Ponting’s Australia?

[Shri]

India won zero tests vs peak in the 80s. Where are you getting your facts from? India drew at home in 1988 in a series where WI only front line bowler was Courtney Walsh. And WI actually were well on their way to going 2-0 after two tests, were it not for the weather. If Rohit or whoever ever faced Marshall, Holding , Garner and any other 4th bowler at say Sabina Park without bouncer restrictions and no helmets, then they would die.

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[Kilowatt]

It will all be balanced when Pakistan crush India in the 2023 WTC final at Ahmedabad.

If Kohli is still captain, that would likely happen.

 

[Chrish]

My instinctive reaction says smiths Sa that didn’t loose an away series for almost a decade. But then they kept loosing to Aus and Eng at home. So, it comes down to whether you value home performance more or away ones?

In the end I went with India because few sides if any have been this dominant at home. Of course they are helped by the fact that other SC sides have been in terminal decline like Lanka and Pakistan so they don’t have any real competitors when playing in Asia.

 

[PaulLennon]

Like I have mentioned, cricket isn't between best XIs but best squads. And current Ind's top 30 players are way way better than that SA side's.

Amla, ABDV, Kallis, Faf, Smith, Steyn, Morkel, Philander were great but they also had Alviro Petersen, Tsotsobe, Robin Petersen, Tahir etc. I don't think there has been anyone who has played 5+ matches for India since 2015 has been "bad" per se.

I just checked.

For Kohli's India (Apr 2015 onwards) of bowlers who have played more than 5 matches - all of them average below 30 with highest being Umesh's 28.13. This includes guys like Amit Mishra, Bhuvi, Kuldeep.

For batsmen below 40 -
Rahane 37.86, Vijay 36.61, Rahul 36.51, Vihari 32.84
Wkt batsmen - Pant 38.8, Parthiv 35.85, Saha 31.73

For Smith's SA (07-14) -
Averages above 30 (Ind has 0) - Ntini 30.09, Harris 37.87, Tahir 46.39, Nel 36.30, R Petersen 33.76, Tsotsobe 49.77

Batsmen below 40 -
Elgar 37.65, Duminy 36.57, A Petersen 34.88, J Rudolph 33
Wkt batsmen - DeKock 37.7, Boucher 30.68

That SA team was like this current Aus team a bit - a few ATGs surrounded by mediocre players (although the SA team had a higher ratio of ATG/mediocre).

It's the presence of the ATGs that blind most people. Their second opener was always sus. Third pacer before Philander was sus and even Morkel wasn't that good (became better later on). Spinner was always sus. Sixth batsmen too wasn't as good as the others.

 

[Teja.]

Even when WI won in Ind in 84, they won 3 and drew 3 and in the three drawn matches India had huge leads. It's just that the bowling attack was Dev with primary spinners Maninder Singh and Ravi Shastri lol.

I expect the pace quartet to do well but Ind will scrape their way to 250ish and then WI will be bundled for low scores.

Please stop this hindsight analysis.

The second test was drawn after WI was up 1-0. The fourth test was drawn after WI was up 2-0. The sixth test was drawn after WI was already up 3-0. Do you see a pattern? In none of the above tests was WI remotely in danger or fighting for a draw. They were comfortably batting with 8, 6 and 9 wickets respectively still in hand at close of play on day 5.

It was an era where teams were less fussed about winning individual tests when they had series lead already and a draw in that position was seen as an extension of the lead to the close of the series. This is particularly true of a fast bowling heavy side like west indies. If you look at the stats of the AUS and WI ATG teams, Australia won more tests but also lost more which reflects the change in mindset from WI who were content to draw games as long as the series was in the bag.

For some perspective on how absurdly good that side was, West Indies did not lose a single test series for a fifteen year period between 1980 and 1995, home or away. It is a record that is just completely unbelievable, in a very real sense of the word.

 

[PaulLennon]

Please stop this hindsight analysis.

The second test was drawn after WI was up 1-0. The fourth test was drawn after WI was up 2-0. The sixth test was drawn after WI was already up 3-0. Do you see a pattern? In none of the above tests was WI remotely in danger or fighting for a draw. They were comfortably batting with 8, 6 and 9 wickets respectively still in hand at close of play on day 5.

It was an era where teams were less fussed about winning individual tests when they had series lead already and a draw in that position was seen as an extension of the lead to the close of the series. This is particularly true of a fast bowling heavy side like west indies. If you look at the stats of the AUS and WI ATG teams, Australia won more tests but also lost more which reflects the change in mindset from WI who were content to draw games as long as the series was in the bag.

For some perspective on how absurdly good that side was, West Indies did not lose a single test series for a fifteen year period between 1980 and 1995, home or away. It is a record that is just completely unbelievable, in a very real sense of the word.

they were comfortably batting cause the indian bowling sucked. that was the worst indian bowling lineup ever.

against nz and pak - the only two sides who had a W/L ratio greater than 1 they had a 3-2 win record each. only 6 countries actually played tests then.

 

[Chrish]

Waugh/ Ponting’s Australia was a excellent team but they were also heavily reliant on McGrath. Whenever he was missing, they looked extremely vulnerable (Indian tour in 2003-4, ashes 2005 etc.).

Great team but I wasn’t a fan of their overreliance on a one bowler..

 

[honestbharani]

I dont think it is a stretch to say that we can beat the ATG Aussie team in India. We have done it with far less. The ATG Windies team is a tougher comparison coz our team was so comfortably bad against pace in the 80s. Its a different era. So it is far more of a hypothetical than the Aussie question.

 

[Slifer]

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Were either of those series in the 80s vs peak WI? And did you even bother to note that in the 78 series WI first XI was away playing Packer cricket?? I'll just assume that you are trolling.

 

[PaulLennon]

I dont think it is a stretch to say that we can beat the ATG Aussie team in India. We have done it with far less. The ATG Windies team is a tougher comparison coz our team was so comfortably bad against pace in the 80s. Its a different era. So it is far more of a hypothetical than the Aussie question.

No. Cause our bowlers would get them for lesser than what they would get our batsmen out for.

This is the greatest bowling attack in Indian conditions ever.

That Indian team in 84 was getting 200-400 in the first innings. That's enough for the current lot of bowlers to work with.

 

[sunilz]

Waugh/ Ponting’s Australia was a excellent team but they were also heavily reliant on McGrath. Whenever he was missing, they looked extremely vulnerable (Indian tour in 2003-4, ashes 2005 etc.).

Great team but I wasn’t a fan of their overreliance on a one bowler..

Aus whitewashed SA, SL overseas 3-0 without McGrath. You remember only those series in which they didn't do well without McGrath.

 

[Teja.]

I dont think it is a stretch to say that we can beat the ATG Aussie team in India. We have done it with far less. The ATG Windies team is a tougher comparison coz our team was so comfortably bad against pace in the 80s. Its a different era. So it is far more of a hypothetical than the Aussie question.

I think we can beat or at least be favs against both sides at home due to how strong we are at home. I just was ticked off by the hindsight analysis of those 1983/84 draws by him.

 

[Chrish]

Aus whitewashed SA, SL overseas 3-0 without McGrath. You remember only those series in which they didn't do well without McGrath.

Mcgrath was a key player against India, against whom warne wasn’t all that effective..

 

[PaulLennon]

While I expect WI bowlers to do as well as they did in 84.

Their batsmen would flop big time. They averaged 33.41 in the 84 series against the likes of Maninder Singh, Shastri et al.

 

[PaulLennon]

I think we can beat or at least be favs against both sides at home due to how strong we are at home. I just was ticked off by the hindsight analysis of those 1983/84 draws by him.

Nothing wrong with that. Ind scored 200-400 in each 1st innings of that tour. Considering the current Indian batting is as good/better than the 80s one we would have had similar 1st innings scores.

WI wouldn't make similar scores though. Maninder Singh, Shastri, Binny, Madan Lal lol.

Kapil averaged 18.50 with the ball that series though. Just had no support. You put Shami, Umesh, Ashwin, Axar, Jadeja. WI are getting out for 150-200 each innings. No pace quartet can save that.

Saying that because peak WI beat India in India the 80s means they'll beat peak India in India now is dumb.

It's like saying because peak Ind (current team) beat Aus in Aus twice they'll beat peak Aus in Aus.

WI won in 84 in India which was good but that was a super weak Indian team. Worst spinners in 50 years. Lost home series to Pak and Eng too.

 

[sunilz]

While I expect WI bowlers to do as well as they did in 84.

Their batsmen would flop big time. They averaged 33.41 in the 84 series against the likes of Maninder Singh, Shastri et al.

IND might win 2-1 or 3-2 against WI 80s side. But it will be a very close series. Fully expect Marshall/Richards to up their game.

 

[GotSpin]

While I expect WI bowlers to do as well as they did in 84.

Their batsmen would flop big time. They averaged 33.41 in the 84 series against the likes of Maninder Singh, Shastri et al.

What’s your other account by the way?

 

[GotSpin]

Touring India was just a different experience as well.
Expect it to be much easier now for the better sides although I’m still looking forward to the hypothetical 30 v 30 match

 

[ma1978]

Speculating about how todays team will play against the Windies is pointless. And has nothing to do with the question asked. All you can do is evaluate what the teams actually did. The Windies team has an exceptional record, arguably the greatest ever in any team sport. The Indian team has an exceptional record at home and a historically good record for an Asian team away.

 

[PaulLennon]

IND might win 2-1 or 3-2 against WI 80s side. But it will be a very close series. Fully expect Marshall/Richards to up their game.

4-1.

Marshall will do well. Richards averaged 45 in India against a much much weaker lineup.

As much as Richards is mythologized (partly due to performance in England and it's the English media who hypes stuff up - like Strauss's England being the best side ever etc and because they are the old tastemakers everyone goes along with the narrative), thing is Richards as a test batsmen basically has the record of Kohli.

And while people might be like Richards did it against tougher attacks than Kohli etc he didn't. He averaged 43 against Hadlee's NZ and 42 against Imran's Pak. 21 of his 24 centuries are against England/India/Australia.