2nd Test at Adelaide - 16 to 20 Dec

[Spark]

This is certainly true but I think much of it goes back to Waugh. Ponting’s team gets a lot of **** about its behaviour (mostly courtesy of now dead kiddy fiddler Peter Roebuck) but Waugh’s side was many, many times worse imo

Yeah fancy getting called out for your moral conduct by that level of character. I never really thought Ponting tried to play in a nasty way as a tactic, he was just competitive to excess, hence the arguing with umpires and what not. That actually bleeds into his commentary a bit, you can hear how irate he gets at ****, dumb cricket even when it's not Aus at fault.

 

[Spark]

Though to be fair to Ponting, imagine if he'd been England captain in this game; there's absolutely no way the bowlers would have gotten away with bowling the lengths that they did without copping a massive spray.

 

[Number 11]

i want to like jhye but unless he's smiling he's got such a snivelling face and i can't jive it

great bowler though mind you

Give me whatever he was on this test. Guy looked more wired than your average nightclub punter all game

 

[Gob]

Though to be fair to Ponting, imagine if he'd been England captain in this game; there's absolutely no way the bowlers would have gotten away with bowling the lengths that they did without copping a massive spray.

He would spit at their faces instead of his palms

 

[halba]

cant see a result other than 5-0. they got past the damp squib adelaide. the other wickets are more lively and the england pacers are ok but the batters apart from two or three are at sri lanka, pakistan or bangladesh standard in these conditions. Not to mention the two top bowlers in these conditions are returning- cummins and haze, atleast for the next test.

surely jhye cant be dropped for the next game. that would be cruel, he just won an ashes game on his own, if he wasnt there, it would've been a total draw, even if cummins or haze or one of them was there, it could've been a draw, jhye's extra pace did the trick.

england any changes perhaps? theres a lot of passengers in the ENG team..

 

[Spikey]

This is certainly true but I think much of it goes back to Waugh. Ponting’s team gets a lot of **** about its behaviour (mostly courtesy of the thankfully now dead kiddy fiddler Peter Roebuck) but Waugh’s side was many, many times worse imo

It also explains how he ended up doing that press conference after that benighted day that ended up causing so much damage, no human with their brain actually in working order would have thought that a good idea.

And once again, **** Lehmann. What's the point of a coach if he isn't willing to take the heat for his captain and players in that situation? There's a reason England rolled out the batting coach to do the press on Day 1 when they'd only bowled.

I would say that on one hand, it goes back to AB, just because he was in charge for so long and the two immediate captains after Border obviously played so much under Border, so everything stems from there, but Waugh obviously took it to the next level (as Knox somewhat says in his recent article).

I think the most important thing in regards to Lehmann here is that Clarke was quite open in saying that he thought Lehmann was acquiring too much power and influence as coach (which tbf I don't think is a problem, as much as the old timers dislike it) and as Spark says, when Lehmann actually had to stand up, he went missing and his ineptitude made things a thousand times worse for all

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Nah, you play him now and in every test match imo unless he goes the distance regularly. He is world-class. Don't think I've had this energy and vibe about a bowler since Steyn burst on to the scene in 06/07 and started decimating batting line-ups

Richardson looked very handy, but he's no Jamieson.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

cant see a result other than 5-0. they got past the damp squib adelaide. the other wickets are more lively and the england pacers are ok but the batters apart from two or three are at sri lanka, pakistan or bangladesh standard in these conditions.

Pakistan are much better at batting in these conditions than Australia. They almost chased down 450+ not long ago in Aus.

 

[honestbharani]

This is certainly true but I think much of it goes back to Waugh. Ponting’s team gets a lot of **** about its behaviour (mostly courtesy of now dead kiddy fiddler Peter Roebuck) but Waugh’s side was many, many times worse imo

It started with Waugh, got worse under Ponting, peaked under Clarke and exploded under The Cheat. Not saying one group was better than the other but Waugh's team were ATGs and I guess after a while when you keep beating opposition so easily, you develop some sympathy for them at least off the field, which curiously seems to also be why Windies 80s are looked at with rose tinted glasses too. But Ponting's side somehow was worse even when losing, and then continued that even when the ATGs were gone. Mickey Arthur seemed to bring some semblance of civility back but Clarke decided what they needed was more mongrel and brought in Lehmann. And Smith basically grew up in that era. So it was least surprising he allowed it to fester as much as he did.

Paine was pretty dickish (no pun intended) even before this issue that cost him his captaincy. Cummins seems the best guy to get them out of that rut at least in terms of attitude tbh.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Teams sit in 4 tiers at the moment

Top tier
India
NZ
Australia

2nd tier
Pakistan
England
South Africa

3rd tier
Windies
Sri Lanka
Bangladesh

Bottom tier
Zimbabwe
Afghanistan
Ireland

 

[halba]

Teams sit in 4 tiers at the moment

Top tier
India
NZ
Australia

2nd tier
Pakistan
England
South Africa

3rd tier
Windies
Sri Lanka
Bangladesh

Bottom tier
Zimbabwe
Afghanistan
Ireland

agree. thats pretty much it overall. india and new zealand a class above anyone at the moment though. got the best batters and bowlers . new zealand pace attack is the best in modern cricket.

 

[Spark]

Clarke decided what they needed was more mongrel and brought in Lehmann

As Spikey posts, that wasn't Clarke who made that decision to bring in Lehmann and empower him, that was CA.

 

[sunilz]

In case England loses Ashes 5-0 and Root decides to quit captaincy, who will be the new England Captain?

 

[StephenZA]

In case England loses Ashes 5-0 and Root decides to quit captaincy, who will be the new England Captain?

Have to wait for the Eng to SA your for the English captain to quit...

 

[morgieb]

it's funny because Steve Waugh seems like such a mild mannered, shy man

the mental disintegration stuff was surely AB's baby

I remember quincywagstaff made a post about the abrasiveness of Australians prior to the Cape Town incident which suggested that while Australia have had behavioural issues for some time, the excess was originally driven by Tugga:

I don’t know how anyone could argue that such controversies are atypical of Australian sides of recent decades; in fact, quite the opposite. Going by the modern captains:

Allan Border - Their 1991 tour of West Indies was notorious for abrasive behaviour by both sides. Merv Hughes was the Dave Warner of his day, unapologetically being in the face and antagonistic ofr the opposition; once he was accused of spitting in the vicinity of an opposing batsman. Border himself was fined in a Test for abusing umpires at the end of a tense Test match
And then there was Oz’s first tour post-readmission of South Africa which generated major headlines here with Merv’s confrontation with a spectator and Warne’s sendoff of Andrwe Hudson (iirc the Oz board actually increased the fines they initially got from the match referee).

Mark Taylor – His side was probably the best behaved; they had their moments (like against the West Indies and Lara in Perth in 1996/97) but generally they stayed out of controversy. I think the only player to get sanctioned by the match referee under Taylor’s tenure was Glenn McGrath for his abuse of Alan Mullally in the Melbourne 1998/99 Test

Steve Waugh – Certainly for all their success their on-field behaviour was a big source of criticism under his tenure. Only two incidents really became major controversies – the Slater/Dravid 2001 dustup and McGrath/Sarwan but Australia’s aggressive demeanour and Waugh’s unapologetic use of it was an issue for many.

Ricky Ponting – Obviously the India 07/08 SCG Test was probably the biggest modern controversy of all which is still debated today (and even in this thread), but overall I don’t think the sides under Ponting behaved that badly. Ponting himself could lose the plot a bit (with umpires as well as players) and there was idiotic events like Watson’s behaviour after dismissing Gayle in a WACA Test (and then still trying to justify it afterwards) but weren’t in controversy too often I thought

Michael Clarke – With Warner in the side from early in Clarke’s tenure, on-field incidents were fairly regular under his tenure. But things ramped up when Lehmann came on board with a conscious effort to be more aggressive on-field, leading to the 2013/14 series v England and SA with ‘broken f***arm’, the ‘pack of dogs’ allegation and various others.

 

[honestbharani]

As Spikey posts, that wasn't Clarke who made that decision to bring in Lehmann and empower him, that was CA.

My bad then. But I got the feeling Clarke wanted Arthur replaced though. Maybe I was wrong. Then blame is with CA I guess.

 

[Spark]

My bad then. But I got the feeling Clarke wanted Arthur replaced though. Maybe I was wrong. Then blame is with CA I guess.

I mean... did anyone not want Arthur replaced after that India tour?

 

[Starfighter]

He makes the batsman play constantly at balls they don't want to play and gets bounce and movement from very little. Big question is just whether his shoulder and elbow can hold up long term

He's about 5-6 km/h down pace wise on where he was pre-injury IMO, I've never felt his ceiling now is quite as high as it was before the injury. Seems to have a bit more trouble getting it to swing as well. It'll be interesting to see what happens if his shoulder recovers to the point he can throw properly.

 

[Spark]

He's about 5-6 km/h down pace wise on where he was pre-injury IMO, I've never felt his ceiling now is quite as high as it was before the injury. Seems to have a bit more trouble getting it to swing as well. It'll be interesting to see what happens if his shoulder recovers to the point he can throw properly.

To be honest, I think Steyn and now Cummins have shown that long term, you don't actually need to be that quick to be a top class test bowler. Both of them slowed down as they matured into their careers.

But yeah I haven't seem him bowl that nasty outswinger he used to have since coming back into the side either. Whether that's some modification to his release or whether it's just the Kookaburra being a Kookaburra, I don't know.

I tried to watch him pretty carefully in the field re: his throwing whenever he was made to. It wasn't a great throw, but I've seen worse. It's definitely come back a long way compared to last season where he was basically bowling it in from fine leg.

 

[wpdavid]

In case England loses Ashes 5-0 and Root decides to quit captaincy, who will be the new England Captain?

Stokes, probably as a batsman who can occasionally send down a few overs rather than a genuine all-rounder.

I would imagine that Root and Stokes will be discussing it sooner rather than later.