2nd Test at Adelaide - 16 to 20 Dec

[Gob]

Having watched more Test Cricket than most on this forum, this is by far one of the weakest sides ever to come to Australia. We had the halcyon days of Lillee/Thompson, Waugh's incredible sides and even Bradman's Invincincible but the POMS were always able to give us a run for our money. NOT this mob. Pommie fans/cricket lovers why has the wheels fallen offf this side?

I was wondering this my self. Even if you look at 93 to 03 where Aus had really strong teams, England did prank odd win (Melbourne 98, Sydney 03) and competed in some. In contrast, they have been absolutely hopeless since 10/11. May be its down to individual brilliance from Aust (MJ 13/14 and Smith 17/18)

 

[honestbharani]

I hope England surprise us tomorrow, but we all kinda know what to expect here. That's sad.

 

[Arachnodouche]

How is Travis Head suddenly a thing? My recollection of him was an ineffectual also-ran but now he's coming in and making all the plays?

 

[wpdavid]

Mainly down to the wrecking of our domestic system over the last 15 years, which has been designed to make sure that we barely produce any test cricketers worthy of the name.

 

[TimAngas]

How is Travis Head suddenly a thing? My recollection of him was an ineffectual also-ran but now he's coming in and making all the plays?

His mindset looks to have changed a lot. Admittedly from a small sample size I think he's realised he's not someone who is going to grind down a bowling attack but batter it. The balls he looked in two minds about playing in the last home series he's just walloping. Mind you, he's not coming in under pressure.

Mind you... it's the same kind of stuff that got him caught at third man repeatedly against the bowling of India in 2018/19. I'm sure he'll have a run of low scores and be lambasted again soon enough.

 

[Anil]

A Stokes super-special is the only thing standing between England and a massive defeat..,

 

[Jay London]

Mainly down to the wrecking of our domestic system over the last 15 years, which has been designed to make sure that we barely produce any test cricketers worthy of the name.

I think I agree. Would also wonder whether there haven't really been a lot of very strong England batting line ups in the last 20 years and of those that have been good a fair percentage of the batters spent some or all of their childhoods in countries with far more congenial year round climates. Had Pietersen not played for England I don't think we would have any confidence that his replacement would have been any good.

 

[mackembhoy]

Having watched more Test Cricket than most on this forum, this is by far one of the weakest sides ever to come to Australia. We had the halcyon days of Lillee/Thompson, Waugh's incredible sides and even Bradman's Invincincible but the POMS were always able to give us a run for our money. NOT this mob. Pommie fans/cricket lovers why has the wheels fallen offf this side?

The ECB do not care about the championship and haven't done for a long time.

Majority of games are played in April and September where medium pacers run riot.

Focusing everything on white ball cricket. Playing T20 and now The Hundred in a block during the summer months where the best weather is more likely to occur. To line their pockets more than anything else.

Players do not get a chance to develop and play long innings on wickets more akin to test match pitches.

Don't face fast bowlers or spinners as they aren't needed to win games. Brought in a nonsensical toss rule to develop spinners, yet games are over in two days.

Counties are absolutely skint and so result orientated wickets are usually what they are forced to produce.

Then you throw in the amount of kolpaks in previous seasons. Also players that are 'homegrown' or some bizarre passport loophole. Durham best batter and bowler being beneficiaries of this.

Means at a lot of counties hard for homegrown talent to flourish. Hampshire aka Hampafrica for many years.

So you combine it all together and it means players are just not able to make the step up. When they get the chance.

Burns and Pope have been about the best the championship has provided in terms of batting in the last 5 years. Rory through shear amount and Ollie at ridiculous average. But they play on a road half their games, even in the bookends of the season.

 

[ImpatientLime]

The ECB do not care about the championship and haven't done for a long time.

Majority of games are played in April and September where medium pacers run riot.

Focusing everything on white ball cricket. Playing T20 and now The Hundred in a block during the summer months where the best weather is more likely to occur. To line their pockets more than anything else.

Players do not get a chance to develop and play long innings on wickets more akin to test match pitches.

Don't face fast bowlers or spinners as they aren't needed to win games. Brought in a nonsensical toss rule to develop spinners, yet games are over in two days.

Counties are absolutely skint and so result orientated wickets are usually what they are forced to produce.

Then you throw in the amount of kolpaks in previous seasons. Also players that are 'homegrown' or some bizarre passport loophole. Durham best batter and bowler being beneficiaries of this.

Means at a lot of counties hard for homegrown talent to flourish. Hampshire aka Hampafrica for many years.

So you combine it all together and it means players are just not able to make the step up. When they get the chance.

Burns and Pope have been about the best the championship has provided in terms of batting in the last 5 years. Rory through shear amount and Ollie at ridiculous average. But they play on a road half their games, even in the bookends of the season.

agree with most of this other than medium pacers being king because of the championship scheduling.

even when the red ball game was played at the height of summer, counties produced an abnormally high amount of medium fast bowlers versus out and out quicks.

i grew up in the 90s like many here and remember selection after selection of utterly toothless medium fasts getting picked for home tests.

steve watkin
neil mallender
paul illot
peter martin
mike smith
mark ealham (gunman odi bowler tho)
ed giddins
martin mccauge
tim munton

and then the likes of cork, mullally, caddick (to some degree), defretais etc who were pefectly serviceable in england but ****ing horrible away from home.

now do the same list of lads with true wheels in the 90s and it probably starts and ends with devon malcolm and for all his faults he was handled horrendously.

this country for numerous reasons, some it can control and others it can't is not a happy breeding ground for guys who bowl heat and it has been that way for generations. it has nothing to do with the 100 or white ball focus.

 

[Blenkinsop]

TBF the ECB have put a lot of work into developing quick bowlers. Any promising teenager who looks like they might be able to bowl 90mph one day gets put on special programmes and generally fast-tracked through the system. But it hasn't worked out very well lately. Archer and Stone are now perma-crocked, and bowlers like George Garton and Zak Chappell haven't developed the consistency to play Test cricket.

I still think Mahmood should've been in the Test squad, certainly ahead of Overton.

 

[trundler]

What are the English fast bowlers eating? Can't raise them on bread sauce and gruel.

 

[Shady Slim]

England already moving on to the next series with 3 and a bit tests left. What a spiritless side

this happens a lot in australia

shows just how awesome what india did

 

[theegyptian]

Then you throw in the amount of kolpaks in previous seasons. Also players that are 'homegrown' or some bizarre passport loophole. Durham best batter and bowler being beneficiaries of this.

Means at a lot of counties hard for homegrown talent to flourish. Hampshire aka Hampafrica for many years.

A lot of the kolpaks/other imports had improved the standard of the comp in the 2000s and 2010s and made the english players better as a result, and some went onto play for England . Less around these days and the standards poorer. It was generally positive for the English game imo, even if some clubs had possibly too many imports on occasion.

18 counties means there are a lot of players required, especially with England playing loads, IPL, and the amount of cricket the counties play; meaning counties rarely anywhere near full strength. A lot of bad players making up sides currently, means standard generally poor.

There are a lot of bad youngsters playing at some of the counties. At most counties you don't have todo much to start playing some professional cricket. Kids with crap techniques that wouldn't get anywhere near playing first class cricket in most, if not all other countries. Just look at SUssex this past season.

Who exactly is Bedingham or Carse keeping out of the Durham side in reality?

 

[Gob]

Question to England fans. Any updates on Root's penis?

 

[Shri]

*tim looks around nervously*

 

[TheJediBrah]

A lot of the kolpaks/other imports had improved the standard of the comp in the 2000s and 2010s and made the english players better as a result, and some went onto play for England . Less around these days and the standards poorer. It was generally positive for the English game imo, even if some clubs had possibly too many imports on occasion.

18 counties means there are a lot of players required, especially with England playing loads, IPL, and the amount of cricket the counties play; meaning counties rarely anywhere near full strength. A lot of bad players making up sides currently, means standard generally poor.

There are a lot of bad youngsters playing at some of the counties. At most counties you don't have todo much to start playing some professional cricket. Kids with crap techniques that wouldn't get anywhere near playing first class cricket in most, if not all other countries. Just look at SUssex this past season.

Who exactly is Bedingham or Carse keeping out of the Durham side in reality?

This lol. There's no shortage of opportunities for English players when you need to fill 18 teams. You could have 7 overseas players per team and still have as many locals playing FC cricket as they do in Australia.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Question to England fans. Any updates on Root's penis?

It must be a incredibly rare feat in cricket to have getting hit in the nuts bookend your day.

 

[Pup Clarke]

There's obviously no one answer, but I've always got the feeling England are extremely cautious in their selection process and are just unwilling to take calculated risks. It's fine being pragmatic to a certain extent when you have a settled XI (or squad of players) and are consistently winning tests macthes, but sometimes you just have to go with your gut and make bold selections. Liam Livingstone being a prime example of a player who should absolutely 100% have been in this Ashes squad

I think England coaches are probably good at identifying talent, and funnelling them through the relevant player pathways (England age groups, Lions etc) but have no idea how to properly develop certain players to equip them to deal with the physical, mental and psychological challenges which are unique to test cricket.

There are a host of fast bowlers in the county system in their early-mid 20s who just haven't made the breakthrough to the full team, and the evidence is certainly substantial that it isn't coincidental, and is endemic amongst the county game

A few names include Reece Topley, Saqib Mahmood, George Garton, Ben Coad, Sam Cook, Matthew Fisher, Jamie Overton and Brydon Carse. Between them they haven't played a single test match and the majority haven't been involved in a wider squad

There is also a generation slightly older including Lewis Gregory, Jamie Porter, Ed Barnard and Tom Bailey who are all excellent county cricketers and probably deserved a chance in the last couple of summers. Gregory and Porter especially

 

[Prince EWS]

A few names include Reece Topley, Saqib Mahmood, George Garton, Ben Coad, Sam Cook, Matthew Fisher, Jamie Overton and Brydon Carse. Between them they haven't played a single test match and the majority haven't been involved in a wider squad

There is also a generation slightly older including Lewis Gregory, Jamie Porter, Ed Barnard and Tom Bailey who are all excellent county cricketers and probably deserved a chance in the last couple of summers. Gregory and Porter especially

The seam bowling isn't really the problem though. It's easy to rattle off a bunch of seamers who might theoretically have been okay in Tests, but when all your fast bowlers and all your batsmen are averaging <32, taking punts changing the bowling isn't going to solve anything.

I totally disagree that they've been too cautious with the batting selections. They keep stridently seeming to believe that the performances of the batsmen they're selecting aren't the best they can do and then swapping them out for similar standard players who perform similiarly. They've tried everything too - the best county performers (Burns, Pope, Sibley, etc), blokes who just look good (Crawley, Vince, etc), blokes who've done well in other formats (Roy, Hales, Buttler, etc) - all failed.

The problem isn't their selection, it's that their batsmen (both the ones they are selecting and the ones they aren't) aren't very good. It's not a very ***y problem to try and solve in our airchairs on CW, but I think it's true.

 

[Pup Clarke]

I sort of agree with you. I should have explicitly mentioned that I was talking about England bowling's options and will probably post at another time about England's repeated failures with the bat and what that may be down too.

The wider point is that yes "the seam bowling isn't really the problem" as you mentioned, but there will be a time very soon when Anderson and Broad (and likely Woakes and Wood) will all be retiring. You're essentially left with Archer and Stone (incredibly injury prone) as the bowlers in county cricket who've had test match experience with a bunch of uncapped and untested bowlers throughout the country

The likes of Gregory, Porter, Bailey and Coad (traditional English seam bowlers) should have been blooded in gradually and given time to acclimiatise to test cricket. Sure if they didn't perform or were out of their depth, that's fine - but to not have a look at a few other alternatives reeks of poor long-term planning imo

And the quicker, skiddier bowlers in that list (Garton and Mahmood) should have been looked at for overseas tests in the subcontinent. Yes Garton has a middling FC average, but you only have to watch him bowl to notice that he could be impactful at test level and trouble test-class batsman.
I mean, the biggest inditement is that Garton was brought over to Australia four years ago as a net bowler to allow England to become accustomed to Starc, and he apparently impressed a great deal in that time
And yet four years on, where he is? That's not a 'failure' as such, but it certaintly tells something imo