***Official New Zealand in India Nov-Dec 2021 Thread***

[nzfan]

Yeah, I mean I think in almost any other circumstance I'd go with 3 seamers, Ajaz and Ravindra. But the fact that India have rested Bumrah and Shami whilst playing all of their frontline spinners kinda telegraphs what kinda surfaces we can expect in this series (as if we didn't know already). I tend to agree that 2.5 spinners is the only way to go.

That is very true. Resting Bumrah and Shami both kind of indicates what's coming. No home side wants to lose even a single test match now given the wtc points.

I'm not saying we should play Santner. I'm all for Ravindra but kind of understand if they go with Santner.

I think people that follow nz first class will be expecting Rachin to score runs and bowl couple of overs. He was equally effective like Ajaz in Bangladesh. If there's turn and bounce, the occasion doesn't get to him he'll surprise few people. I'm not going to base his effectiveness based on the first class stats.

 

[straw man]

Who are you more confident will a) take wickets and b) not get totally destroyed and having a fancy taken to them by Indian batsmen at home?
1. 3 of the best pace bowlers in the world
2. 3 random spinners who would not make NZ's test XI in most other conditions?

So say we pick 3 spinners, are we really sure they don't get absolutely smashed by Rohit et al?

Even if the pitch is an absolute dustbowl, do we think Kyle Jamieson or Neil Wagner or Tim Southee are getting smashed?

I don't know why you think this is so clear-cut - the reason it's generated numerous comments is because the makeup of the bowling attack in these conditions to take 20 wickets is very debatable.

Leaving aside any talk of part-timers, the core question is Somerville vs a seamer. Yes the latter are all better bowlers in SENA conditions. But have NZ played in conditions in Asia where average spinner >> all of our seamers? Yes. Numerous times. In all of India, SL, Pakistan, UAE and Bangladesh. Sometimes in those conditions - where even Michael Clarke or Joe Root might take a bagful - you just need spin bowling, nothing else. Some accuracy is required, but Somerville isn't Sodhi or Craig on a bad day. The delta imposed by the conditions can absolutely be greater than the gap in quality between our seamers and Somerville.

Because it's so debatable and so dependent on how they assess the pitch, I won't be complaining whichever way NZ go... unless they do something dumb like pick five bowlers to bat Jamieson at 7. Even picking Santner, as much as I wouldn't do it (would go Rachin), is less a bad idea here than elsewhere.

 

[SteveNZ]

I 100% do not understand if they go with Santner. Rachin is a better batsman and potentially a better bowler. Every time we pick Santner now, and even in squads, we're taking a step backwards. He doesn't offer anything to our Test side.

 

[nzfan]

Santner and Darryl were drafted for Boult and Conway. I don't think they'll be ahead in the pecking order. Phillips i don't believe will play given the right handers in Indian line up and also the way he played spin in the t20s. I think it's between rachin and one of the pacer but then gary said they'll go with three spinners. Matching the dots rachin will play but which one of the all the capable pacers will miss out? Or will they go with three seamers, Ajaz and Rachin? Intriguing stuff.

 

[nzfan]

Remembering the last series, did we lose all three tosses? I think so. We need to win the toss and bat first to enhance our chances. Opposite of what we do at home, win the toss and mostly bowl.

 

[NZTailender]

Craig had fallen to bits by that stage of his career, and was never very good in the first place. Sodhi is Sodhi and India is always a terrible place for leggies to tour. Santner also dished up pies in Sri Lanka in 2019 on his last Asian assignment and was promptly binned for it.

When it comes down to it, if you're gonna have a bowling average of 50 you have to be capable of doing the heavy lifting with the bat, and I don't rate Santner at all in this regard, even with Bumrah out of the series. He's not nearly good enough to be in consideration for one of the (possibly?) 2 specialist spinner rolls, and I'd honestly rather have Rachin in the side batting at 6 if 3 spinners is what the selectors are looking for. He might dish up some pies, but as the 5th bowler you're only really looking for someone to bowl 10ish overs a day anyway.

Oh for sure. I am no way advocating for Santner's inclusion in any aspect. His bowling hasn't evolved enough to be considering as a bowler, and his batting isn't good enough to be considered as a batsman who can bowl or as a true all-rounder. An average of 50 is only really acceptable for a part timer on the level of someone like Williamson and if we debuted Rachin to be the second spinner as opposed to batsman who can send down some overs an average of 50 from him wouldn't be good enough either.

However if he opened/batted 6 and both Patel and Somerville played and he took 1 or 2 wickets at 50 then that'd be fine (well for him, not for the game because that would mean a part timer has conceded 50-100 runs for 1 or 2 poles).

 

[straw man]

Remembering the last series, did we lose all three tosses? I think so.

Yes. Was infuriating.
Also seem to remember a Mark Chapman loving poster that rhymes with thorax insisting it made no difference .

 

[vandem]

Remembering the last series, did we lose all three tosses? I think so. We need to win the toss and bat first to enhance our chances. Opposite of what we do at home, win the toss and mostly bowl.

Yup lost all 3 tosses. Also a non-DRS series, and sometimes the umpires had difficulty picking Jadeja's slider from the one that turns.

I think 1st and 2nd test could have been close if NZ had won the toss. By 3rd test the Indian batters had the measure of NZ spinners (and IIRC Santner struggled for control in 3rd test, probably tired from so much work in 1st and 2nd test).

 

[Athlai]

Thorax would've been a great new name

 

[Fuller Pilch]

My team

Latham
Will Young
KW
Taylor
Nicholls
Rachin
Blundell
Jamieson
Wagner
Southee
Ajaz

1.5 spinners is enough.

I'd be happy with that, but would possibly prefer Somerville for Wagner (sorry Wags, you're still my favourite cricketer).

 

[Daemon]

Rohit
Shaw
Rahul
Kohli
Vihari
Pant

is significantly better batting lineup than what we’re about to trott out. fuming.

 

[nzfan]

Yup lost all 3 tosses. Also a non-DRS series, and sometimes the umpires had difficulty picking Jadeja's slider from the one that turns.

I think 1st and 2nd test could have been close if NZ had won the toss. By 3rd test the Indian batters had the measure of NZ spinners (and IIRC Santner struggled for control in 3rd test, probably tired from so much work in 1st and 2nd test).

It's that long time ago, no drs

 

[Fuller Pilch]

The only way to get the 2 frontline spinners and the 3 seamers in would be:
Young or Ravindra
Latham
Williamson
Taylor
Nicholls
Blundell
Jamieson (@7 - problem with the plan!l)
Southee
Wagner
Somerville
Ajaz

 

[OverratedSanity]

All our big guns play gully pyjama cricket non stop for months and get either rested or now injured for a big test series. ****ing sucks, man. **** bcci and the ipl. Rahul is made of glass so hardly a huge surprise.

 

[Days of Grace]

I think 3 seamers and 1.5 spinners is fine since we’ll be bowling first.

Young
Latham
Williamson
Taylor
Nicholls
Ravindra
Blundell
Jamieson
Southee
Wagner
Patel

If Somerville plays then drop one of the undroppable seamers. How you choose between Jamieson and Wagner is beyond me.

 

[hendrix]

But have NZ played in conditions in Asia where average spinner >> all of our seamers? Yes. Numerous times. In all of India, SL, Pakistan, UAE and Bangladesh.

Gonna ask you to list those series

Because in the series where we won tests e.g. the UAE and SL, our pace bowlers were at least as effective as our spinners if not more so.

In any case, I'm not saying don't pick a spinner at all. I just think a spinner and a spin-bowling allrounder is more than enough given the quality we have available.

 

[hendrix]

Neil Wagner averages:
39 in India
40 in the UAE
16 in Bangladesh

Tim Southee averages:
29 in India
15 in Sri Lanka
39 in the UAE

Kyle Jamieson averages 14 so everything else is moot.

Again, do we really expect that a spin bowler is going to average less than the worst (read: an average of 40) than any of those pace bowlers? Let a lone 2 or 3 of them?

In this thread we've heard people say that an average of 50 is not bad for a spinner in India. Yet when our incumbent pace bowlers haven't even averaged more than 40 somehow they're the ones who should be dropped.

Bizarre.

 

[sunilz]

Neil Wagner averages:
39 in India
40 in the UAE
16 in Bangladesh

Tim Southee averages:
29 in India
15 in Sri Lanka
39 in the UAE

Kyle Jamieson averages 14 so everything else is moot.

Again, do we really expect that a spin bowler is going to average less than the worst (read: an average of 40) than any of those pace bowlers?

In this thread we've heard people say that an average of 50 is not bad for a spinner in India. Yet when our incumbent pace bowlers haven't even averaged more than 40 somehow they're the ones who should be dropped.

Bizarre.

They have averaged 40 because they bowl less. If they start bowling same number of overs as spinners, they too will average around 50.

 

[Burgey]

Why isn't Boult playing?

 

[ataraxia]

Why isn't Boult playing?

T I R E D
I
R
E
D

Tired.