What is your ALL TIME WORLD XI TEAM for tests?

[Burgey]

Also, just got an email that St Elmo's is closing. Last service on 8 May. Get up there and in for a feed while you can, TJB.

 

[honestbharani]

Just to avoid the sample size argument (relatively speaking), put a 10 wicket limit

Vs England in the 90s

View attachment 28002

Vs Bangladesh in 00s

View attachment 28003

Point being you can be an extremely mediocre bowler like Pietersen, Adams or Price and still end up with ATG like numbers against Banglades because they were not test standards. England were sad and pathetic but still somehow test standards and miles ahead of Bangladesh

Using stats that includes England's home averages against spin is not reflective either. And for the last time, I am not saying BD in 2000 were better than England in the 90s. I simply said they were better than England when it comes to playing spin and if they are considered minnows against spin, so were England. And the fact that Warne averages 27 against a minnow should not be a get out of jail card. Either you consider them together or you accept Warne minnow bashed England in the 90s and leave that out of the comparison as well. That is all.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Take the L here my man

 

[TheJediBrah]

Using stats that includes England's home averages against spin is not reflective either. And for the last time, I am not saying BD in 2000 were better than England in the 90s. I simply said they were better than England when it comes to playing spin and if they are considered minnows against spin, so were England. And the fact that Warne averages 27 against a minnow should not be a get out of jail card. Either you consider them together or you accept Warne minnow bashed England in the 90s and leave that out of the comparison as well. That is all.

- Warne averaged 24 against England in the 90s. So no, he didn't gain anything from "bashing" them.
- Your contention that England were bad against spin in the 90s, even if true, evidently does not extend to Warne's stats which is the reason you brought it up.
- The "averages 27" against a minnow was from 2 games against Bangladesh. That is not a meaningful sample in any conditions.

You are wrong about everything.

 

[honestbharani]

Take the L here my man

 

[Gob]

Using stats that includes England's home averages against spin is not reflective either.

Lol but ok removed


No tests in England.

And for the last time, I am not saying BD in 2000 were better than England in the 90s. I simply said they were better than England when it comes to playing spin

Oh I'm terribly sorry I thought it was otherwise thats why I was posting records of spin bowlers against either team

What you have conveniently ignored to answer from either of those posts were how many **** spinners have George Lohmann like records against Bangladesh.

Just accept it you talked out of your arse and made an extraordinary **** claim with no consideration to facts and now continue to talk out of your ass by cherry picking stats and baseless claims to not to accept you were wrong

 

[honestbharani]

Lol but ok removed

View attachment 28005
No tests in England.



Oh I'm terribly sorry I thought it was otherwise thats why I was posting records of spin bowlers against either team

What you have conveniently ignored to answer from either of those posts were how many **** spinners have George Lohmann like records against Bangladesh.

Just accept it you talked out of your arse and made an extraordinary **** claim with no consideration to facts and now continue to talk out of your ass by cherry picking stats and baseless claims to not to accept you were wrong.

Ah yes, coz I actually watched them play spin well and so I have to be wrong and talking out of my ass coz you stats guru'd stats without context that includes spinners destroying BD in their home conditions as well as after piling up huge scores. And if Vettori is a **** spinner and Paul Strang and Carl Hooper are match winners, then we know who is realy talking out of their ass...


And who else has Lohman like figures over 5 or more tests against BD

Try filtering just home games for BD too btw to understand what I said.

 

[Gob]

Ah yes, coz I actually watched them play spin well and so I have to be wrong

Ah the old I watched it argument fantastic. I watched them too they were trival

spinners destroying BD in their home conditions as well as after piling up huge scores.

Visiting spinners in Bangladesh lol

And if Vettori is a **** spinner and Paul Strang and Carl Hooper are match winners

First off point me to when I said Vettori was a **** spinner so let's not invent things. I was referring to Price, Adams and Petersen. Even Vettori and Kaneria normally average in early 30s (which is perfectly fine for finger spinners) but all of them average about 15 runs less against Bangladesh. That is simply not the case with England.

And who else has Lohman like figures over 5 or more tests against BD

No one played that many games against them because, well they were minnows

 

[OverratedSanity]

This is a very strange hill to die on, hb

 

[Coronis]

What a lovely, intelligent thread to peruse.

 

[rtramdas]

Haha very spurious speculation. Could just as easily say he would average 2 wpm because he wouldn't be needed as much.

Problem is you're judging Miller purely on wpm, which is at best a secondary stat of questionable valuable when rating the quality of bowling. He averaged 21 with the ball over a decent career, with a great strike rate and a perfectly respectable wpm. Along with how he is rated by his contemporaries his status as an ATG bowler is not in doubt. I don't get why you're trying so hard to deny that purely because he wasn't regularly needed to bowl 50 overs a game.

Kapil maintained 4wkts/ test in his first 62 tests in just 5.5 years .He bowled a mammoth 13341 balls(68.56% of Imran's entire career count) in this time period of which first 4757 balls were delivered before he turned 21.Then the injury & surgery came, he didn't take adequate injury break that affected his further stats. All these adverse contexts points to the fact that he could have easily averaged a lot better ( I assume in the range 26.25 - 26.75) other wise

 

[TheJediBrah]

Kapil maintained 4wkts/ test in his first 62 tests in just 5.5 years .He bowled a mammoth 13341 balls(68.56% of Imran's entire career count) in this time period of which first 4757 balls were delivered before he turned 21.Then the injury & surgery came, he didn't take adequate injury break that affected his further stats. All these adverse contexts points to the fact that he could have easily averaged a lot better ( I assume in the range 26.25 - 26.75) other wise

ok

 

[Victor Ian]

Kapil maintained 4wkts/ test in his first 62 tests in just 5.5 years .He bowled a mammoth 13341 balls(68.56% of Imran's entire career count) in this time period of which first 4757 balls were delivered before he turned 21.Then the injury & surgery came, he didn't take adequate injury break that affected his further stats. All these adverse contexts points to the fact that he could have easily averaged a lot better ( I assume in the range 26.25 - 26.75) other wise

So what? Useless **** got injured and couldn't come back as effective. He's a hack. Can only play well in the prime of his life and can not battle adversity. It is kind of like his batting. **** was a hack who just swung away. **** would be a useless liability in any ATG team. **** is a stupid dickhead who doesn't know how to properly heal before he tries to play again.

 

[honestbharani]

Ah the old I watched it argument fantastic. I watched them too they were trival



Visiting spinners in Bangladesh lol
View attachment 28006



First off point me to when I said Vettori was a **** spinner so let's not invent things. I was referring to Price, Adams and Petersen. Even Vettori and Kaneria normally average in early 30s (which is perfectly fine for finger spinners) but all of them average about 15 runs less against Bangladesh. That is simply not the case with England.



No one played that many games against them because, well they were minnows

Wait, I thought 2 tests was not enough sample size?

And the 15 runs less does not mean much given how bad BD side themselves were overall. IT was very simple, and when you watch them its even more simple to understand. And if they were that bad, why does Warne get a pass for being smashed by them?

You cant have it both ways. And yes, they did play spin better than England did in the 90s, dats just how it was. And if you consider these guys minnows, treat England in the 90s the same way. Its as simple as that. If you think Chauhan was a better spinner than any of these guys, lol. And Kaneria was a leggie.

 

[honestbharani]

This is a very strange hill to die on, hb

You said that about Shardul and Sundar too just a few months ago.

 

[stephen]

Wait, I thought 2 tests was not enough sample size?

And the 15 runs less does not mean much given how bad BD side themselves were overall. IT was very simple, and when you watch them its even more simple to understand. And if they were that bad, why does Warne get a pass for being smashed by them?

You cant have it both ways. And yes, they did play spin better than England did in the 90s, dats just how it was. And if you consider these guys minnows, treat England in the 90s the same way. Its as simple as that. If you think Chauhan was a better spinner than any of these guys, lol. And Kaneria was a leggie.

This is a poor take. Your posting has been pretty dire on this whole subject.

Averaging 27 in two tests might be a little disappointing but it was hardly "getting smashed".

00s Bangladesh were a truly terrible side. Not test standard really. They were not good players of anything. If they were good players of spin they'd have done a lot better than they did against India and Sri Lanka. But they weren't. They were in fact hopeless. Just because they were less bad against spin doesn't make them good against it. Otherwise I'd be a terrific bowler.

England were fine against most spin. Not great, but better than some and worse than others. Certainly they were a huge step up from Bangladesh.

I pointed out that this is the way Warne vs Murali discussions often head. It wasn't even bait but you've dutifully proved my point - one side will start taking out one set of stats and them the others will do the same until there's nothing left. The truth is you can twist stats to say that either bowler was better than the other and that's why it's a ridiculously subjective discussion.

So cut it with the nonsense takes. England weren't any more incompetent against spin during the 90s than most of the other top nations. They just looked like it because Australia played them a lot and Warne was a genius .

 

[Gob]

yes, they did play spin better than England did in the 90s, dats just how it was. And if you consider these guys minnows, treat England in the 90s the same way. Its as simple as that.

Dats that then. You know in future if you are going to get in to an argument with someone online, just mention upfront that you have nothing resembling facts to justify **** but it is what it is because dats just how it was, before the actual argument instead of waiting till the end. Saves time

I'm just glad I participated in that anger management boot camp

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Look Bangladesh in the 00s were dreadful against all types of bowling. If Australia had played them more often I don't think Warne would've filled his boots against them though as McGrath, Gillespie, Kasper, Lee etc. would've taken most of the wickets before Warne got a chance to bowl.

 

[honestbharani]

Dats that then. You know in future if you are going to get in to an argument with someone online, just mention upfront that you have nothing resembling facts to justify **** but it is what it is because dats just how it was, before the actual argument instead of waiting till the end. Saves time

I'm just glad I participated in that anger management boot camp

Lol.. I only engaged with you because I think you are capable of better than the one eyed biased drivel we get from TJB and stephen when it comes to Australian cricket, and in TJB's case, cricket in general.

Let me simplify this for you - I believe, having watched England try to play spin in the 90s (I agree they smashed lesser spinners at home but that really does not matter in a Murali V Warne debate) and having watched Bangladesh play (esp the post 2005 BD side), they were better at playing spin than that English side was. They were less threatened by it and more likely to attack the spinners coz they could play them better and also because they sucked against pace, seam, swing and bounce.

But I am not insisting everyone has to see it that way. Its your call to think otherwise, as many here seem to. That is fine, it does not mean I am wrong as it is a judgement call. What is not ok, is to not consider Murali's record against a side that smashed Warne around for fun calling them "minnows". That is obvious bias at best and jingoistic drivel at worst. That was the point. The original moron comment was a direct response to you using the same word. That is all.

 

[Gob]

Let me simplify this for you - I believe, having watched England try to play spin in the 90s (I agree they smashed lesser spinners at home but that really does not matter in a Murali V Warne debate) and having watched Bangladesh play (esp the post 2005 BD side), they were better at playing spin than that English side was. They were less threatened by it and more likely to attack the spinners coz they could play them better and also because they sucked against pace, seam, swing and bounce.

But I am not insisting everyone has to see it that way. Its your call to think otherwise, as many here seem to. That is fine, it does not mean I am wrong as it is a judgement call. What is not ok, is to not consider Murali's record against a side that smashed Warne around for fun calling them "minnows". That is obvious bias at best and jingoistic drivel at worst. That was the point. The original moron comment was a direct response to you using the same word. That is all.

That's a dubious call since it was a one innings and even there, Warne ended up picking a bunch of wickets. What's really bad about this is you keep banging on about how Warne apparently got smashed (again 1 innings) but completely over look significantly better records from spinners who aren't half as good as Warne. When a spinner averages 15 vs one country and collectively 35 against that rest on a fairly sample sized run, you can put that down to odd one out but when there are bunch of spinners with same identical record, there must be something wrong with that opponent.

I watched Bangladesh play a lot ftr and they were disgraceful from memory. The only standout achievement from them I can recall was Ashraful making a hundred vs Murali as a 16 year old or something and probably a couple more similar innings from Ashraful himself

Disagree with every thing else mentioned above aswell