Lillian Thomson
Hall of Fame Member
The six English clubs have all withdrawn.
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***Official*** English Football Season 2020-21
- Thread starter Lillian Thomson
- Start date
It was good drama while it lasted lol never looked like it was something that was going to go through
_Ed_
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I do question what the point of this European Super League was? When I say that I mean obviously money but one director reportedly said they expected the initial outrage and if they could market this overseas you could still make a lot of money out of this proposal I suspect so I do wonder whether they really cared that UK based fans were angry. Does anyone know how overseas fans of these clubs reacted as I guess that's the key thing? Reportedly you've even had board members intimate as much. You could play games in the US, China, Saudi Arabia etc and get fans buying more merchandise and food/drink. Reportedly average price of an NFL game is just over £100 to attend - so looking at bigger prices too and utilising streaming more once you take the ethics of the idea away (which the owners done) I don't know why they backtracked?
Already looking at legal routes re banning players from World Cup and I doubt the other PL owners (many of whom may have gone with this idea if they had the chance anyway) are going to vote to make themselves poorer by chucking the 'big 6' out and seeing TV rights fall to the floor. If they had confidence in the product is it even a bad thing for these clubs to get banned (from the owners perspective) just means TV rights fall in these countries and the ESL clubs have an easier way of picking off the best players at non ESL clubs as the clubs need the money more.
Either the players genuinely were completely against this idea - I do question personally whether you'd have had much backlash from players in a couple years if this went ahead and they saw their wage packets doubled and tripled, but if they were so against it to not take wage rises/go against employers then a Super League without Super players isn't very profitable or this is all a performative act and something else is boiling behind the scenes, otherwise why come up with this plan - surely they knew it would cause outrage - even the timing of the official announcement late on Sunday night suggests they were aware it would rile fans.
Already looking at legal routes re banning players from World Cup and I doubt the other PL owners (many of whom may have gone with this idea if they had the chance anyway) are going to vote to make themselves poorer by chucking the 'big 6' out and seeing TV rights fall to the floor. If they had confidence in the product is it even a bad thing for these clubs to get banned (from the owners perspective) just means TV rights fall in these countries and the ESL clubs have an easier way of picking off the best players at non ESL clubs as the clubs need the money more.
Either the players genuinely were completely against this idea - I do question personally whether you'd have had much backlash from players in a couple years if this went ahead and they saw their wage packets doubled and tripled, but if they were so against it to not take wage rises/go against employers then a Super League without Super players isn't very profitable or this is all a performative act and something else is boiling behind the scenes, otherwise why come up with this plan - surely they knew it would cause outrage - even the timing of the official announcement late on Sunday night suggests they were aware it would rile fans.
Himannv
Hall of Fame Member
My view is that the big clubs feel they are vital to bringing in revenue for every competition they are in - which is, of course, a correct estimation. So an equal distribution of revenue and rights doesn't favour them in terms of the value they bring in to a competition. So, in short, the point of it is they want to make more money so that it is more worth their while to be involved in the competition they are in. I think they expected some dissent but I doubt they expected this much backlash (particularly from the government) - hence the withdrawal from the ESL.
Having said that, this should be a wakeup call to the likes of UEFA. I think there is room for improvement there and there is a chance this will resurface again in some different form if they are not careful. I'm not sure what changes they should make exactly but I think they definitely need to check how they can maximize profits for the clubs that qualify for their competition to make it more worth their while and better cater to the financial needs to the big clubs. To illustrate, I think a club like West Ham will see qualifying for the CL as a huge positive impact to their finances, but for the Manchester clubs, for example, it is not as significant financially due to their comparatively high expenses.
About players, I can't comment. Some have been outspoken against the ESL, while others haven't really chimed in. Probably their views differ from person to person.
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Maybe I am overly cynical but I question whether the government would actually get involved if push comes to shove and saw it as an easy PR stunt - I wouldn't vote for him though and so perhaps that influences my cynicism.
I wonder how this was received overseas as a whole? If it was hated there as well I can see why they pulled out. However, if the promise of high-quality players playing for 'super-clubs' still attracted overseas interest whilst I am happy the proposal has been shot down for now, I don't know why the dissent in the UK really matters. They can market this competition as they want and will feel they can fully exploit the commercial side of the sport - overseas TV rights are still growing for the PL suggesting there is still more money to be made for the owners there whereas domestic deals are stabilising at best (there was a drop in value for domestic TV rights in this current rights cycle).
Especially as I suspect if this went ahead you would still get people watching in the UK - are kids and young teens going to stop watching their footballing idols because of the Super League if they have the choice? I think even adults will see a potentially high-quality product and you will still see some interest, I am sure there will be backlash and many will not watch out of principle but I certainly think it'll be more then the rights for the Europa League and even potentially the Champions League.
I am wondering if your point on the wakeup call for UEFA was the intention of this plan the whole time? I fear the end-result will be more money given to the bigger sides and less to the smaller sides - you already have this in the UCL with the way the money is distributed - I think Man City got more money then Ajax despite being knocked out earlier when Ajax made the semis - but these clubs perhaps hope it is on a far greater scale.
If the reaction overseas was mixed or negative, they may also simply see it as a case of this plan was introduced too soon as opposed to it being a bad plan and try to extract as much money from UEFA until they sense an ideal time to re-introduce the Super League.
In all honesty, I think the Super League format is a more palatable format if you get rid of the idea of founding clubs and no promotion/relegation. I think 4 groups of 6 in each division, for example, to make 24 teams with top spot going to last 8 automatically and 2nd and 3rd going into a playoff for a quarter-final spot. The bottom 3 spots get 'relegated' into Div2 creating 12 new Div1 spots. 4 of those spots are taken by the semi-finalists of Div2 - the other 8 spots given to the highest-finishing side who isn't yet in Div1 in the leagues of top 8 European leagues.
To give mid-tier sides a chance to start with to a) boost their nation coefficients and b) be represented I'd say have 2 representatives from top 4 leagues (8 teams) and then 1 from the following 8 highest ranked nations (up to 16 teams) with a qualifying zone for all the other champions of non top 12 leagues to decide the final 6 spots of the 24 team competition. Coefficients would only be used from the start of this new competition. You could do similar for Div 2 with perhaps just 1 representative from top 16 nations then qualifying for the remaining 8 spots for 2nd placed/cup winners in all other non top 16 leagues
It creates what UEFA want - more games having something riding on them, and personally I think this is at least as good as the new proposal - personally I'd just keep the UCL as it is and change qualification spots for top 5 leagues to top 2 and cup winner (3rd if Cup winner is in top 2 already) and make the 2nd/3rd placed team go through qualifying but its clear some teams or owners at least would be unhappy with that.
That's why I wonder about the reaction from overseas. If there is broad acceptance for this idea and it will attract fans overseas why haven't they gone ahead with this. If there is unhappiness on a broad scale overseas at these plans too I understand the backtracking more but I'm just not sure of this idea that fans in the UK protesting has saved the Super League which is being promoted. Surely whether fans overseas care about this is the main issue given they may well not be even playing in the UK in a couple years if this all went ahead. If they can get money from this growing market then sod the disgruntled domestic fans (in the eyes of the owner) especially as I'd be shocked if you didn't still have people watching on TV if not necessarily to the same extent in the UK.
All of this is why I wonder if it might be performative? Is this just to get UEFA to agree to a deal that effectively dumps on the 'non-elite' clubs but within a system where UEFA benefit or whether this is the first part of a bigger plan in another way or an outside chance that they didn't necessarily expect the players to respond so negatively - this tournament regardless of its ethics doesn't bring in the money if all the best players are united in not playing in it. However, I question quite how strong the players feelings against this are - are they going to pay out the rest of their contract for example if on a long-term deal to then accept a contract that will potentially be a tenth of the value the ESL team would've offered you - especially if/when PL TV deals crash and wages suffer huge downward pressure for non ESL teams.
dontcloseyoureyes
BARNES OUT
Yeah, literally this. The big clubs generate revenue but they don't make money for their owners. Not in the way that the teams in the US do (which is why this was driven by US based owners who coincidentally own teams in the major US sports). Wages are uncapped and forever rising, transfer fees are ever rising and the majority of these clubs are run poorly without foresight. This is a desperation play, which COVID definitely accelerated. Many of these clubs are genuinely on their knees. Billion dollar debts with hundreds of million worth of repayments due by the end of the year or earlier, no lines of credit left. Just look at Levy, he's got a billion dollar stadium that he just built, no fans to put in it and no concerts/NFL games for **** knows how long. Where do you think he's getting that 150m he owes to the Bank of America?
Or you can just listen to the podcast I posted, I guess.
dontcloseyoureyes
BARNES OUT
I disagree with this tbh. The foreign fan base operates so differently to how the English think. You think a bloke in his lounge room at 3am gives a **** how loud the crowd is? The ten guys sitting in their pub at 4pm with the sound on mute don't care either. They've literally never had an alternative.
They're watching at their computers and arguing with opposition fans on Twitter. That's their match day experience, and it makes no difference whether there's ten fans there or 85k.
Magrat Garlick
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The Spanish/Italian clubs still haven't quit which suggests it wasn't quite as badly received there (or they genuinely see no other option within their country to grow)
btw JOJO when you say "overseas" do you mean Europe or America?
btw JOJO when you say "overseas" do you mean Europe or America?
Just to clarify when I said " I do question what the point of this European Super League was? When I say that I mean obviously money but" - I got why they initially had brought this proposal up - what I didn't get was the point of it now they've decided to ditch the plan. But @Magrat Garlick makes a good point about other clubs not quitting yet.
I think after a decade or 2 the format might grow old and those who have wanted to watch have watched and watched and watched but by then the owners will hope they've pocketed themselves a small fortune and sold the club on to someone else who is enticed by the prospect of a financial windfall.
@Magrat Garlick when I say overseas I mainly mean America/Asia - but basically anywhere where they think they could make good money from playing the Super League in that country.
If you had it abroad couldn't you have the international audiences form the crowds? If you are a fan in say the USA and you've never had the opportunity to go to Old Trafford for example to watch a club you follow intently they'd probably relish the chance of it being on their front doorstep (comparative to the UK) and would probably be a more profitable 'customer' - you could maybe get away with charging higher prices for tickets, and they would probably be more likely to buy merchandise - if you could keep replacing some of these 'customers' with a new 'customer' they'll also buy merchandise, potentially be prepared to pay more for tickets and you could do this in a few nations - US, China, maybe Saudi Arabia?
I think after a decade or 2 the format might grow old and those who have wanted to watch have watched and watched and watched but by then the owners will hope they've pocketed themselves a small fortune and sold the club on to someone else who is enticed by the prospect of a financial windfall.
@Magrat Garlick when I say overseas I mainly mean America/Asia - but basically anywhere where they think they could make good money from playing the Super League in that country.
Uppercut
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Funny, I've taken the opposite lesson. Threats of a Super League were the main leverage that the big clubs had, and now it's become clear that these threats are empty because the project is unworkable. They've kindly resigned from their positions on UEFA and burned their bridges, so they don't have any institutional clout either. Now is a great time for reforms that favour everyone outside of the superclubs, who now very suddenly have a common sense of solidarity and purpose.
Spark
Global Moderator
Also I don't think people will be particularly intimidated by "they've thought all this through, they know what they're doing" as a reason to not push back hard against them now.
sledger
Spanish_Vicente
Yeah, I think the horse may have bolted so far as the whole thing is concerned now. New legislation which effectively bans this sort of thing from happening in the future a distinct possibility now, I should have thought.
Red_Ink_Squid
Global Moderator
Yeah while you'd think there are important lessons to be learned by UEFA, I expect their takeaway from the episode will be that the clubs don't have the power to take them on. Kind of like Mr Burns learning he has so many diseases that they are currently stopping each other from killing him.
sledger
Spanish_Vicente
Yeah this is no doubt true to no small extent, but instinctively I feel like domestic fans are part of what give football clubs their brand identities. The live crowds is just one example, but a a major lack of domestic fan engagement would surely have massively deleterious consequences for the long term viability of these sorts of ideas.
sledger
Spanish_Vicente
Yes, unfortunately the whole incident has given the massively corrupt/incompetent UEFA the chance to play the holier than thou white knight card.Yeah while you'd think there are important lessons to be learned by UEFA, I expect their takeaway from the episode will be that the clubs don't have the power to take them on. Kind of like Mr Burns learning he has so many diseases that they are currently stopping each other from killing him.