The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[aussie tragic]

Yeh Lara > Chappell surely

And Chappell > Kallis, especially with Sobers already in there

 

[ataraxia]

Viv surely.

 

[Line and Length]

Viv surely.

Agreed. Lara and Richards in for Chappell and Kallis

 

[mr_mister]

Luckily I have the relevant copy of Wisden (1991):

"Hick... became at 24 the youngest batsman to score 50 first-class hundreds, that record having previously been held by Sir Donald Bradman, when 26." (Glamorgan v Worcs, July 21-24). He completed the hundred on the 24th (his 252 in the first innings being his 49th hundred).

Hammond I think still holds the record for youngest to score 100 first-class hundreds, being a few weeks younger than Hick when they did so.

Awesome info mate, cheers. And lol @ him missing out on Hammond's record by a few weeks.

A bit of extra salt in the wound with being declared on while on 98* haha

 

[Coronis]

Yeh Lara > Chappell surely

Dunno about that, would yeah slide him in instead of Kallis maybe.

 

[Coronis]

Agreed. Lara and Richards in for Chappell and Kallis

Nah i rate Chappell/Lara > Richards

 

[_00_deathscar]

Teams that debuted before Bradman vs Teams that debuted after Bradman

(AUS, ENG, SA, WI)
Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Bradman*
Chappell
Kallis
Sobers
Gilchrist+
Marshall
Warne
Steyn
McGrath

(NZ, IND, PAK, SL, ZIM, BAN, IRE, AFG)
Gavaskar
Sehwag
Sangakkara
Tendulkar
Miandad
Flower+
Imran*
Hadlee
Wasim
Waqar
Muralitharan

Maybe too many bowlers in the 2nd side? Maybe Shakib instead of Waqar?

Lara/Viv over Kallis in that first side, you won't really use him much as a bowler anyway. And if the two teams are going head to head, do you really want Warne in there?

Second side looks about right - maybe Crowe instead of Miandad?

 

[stephen]

Lara/Viv over Kallis in that first side, you won't really use him much as a bowler anyway. And if the two teams are going head to head, do you really want Warne in there?

Second side looks about right - maybe Crowe instead of Miandad?

Of course you'd want Warne in there. It's like arguing if you'd like Murali in the other side.

 

[Nintendo]

Teams that debuted before Bradman vs Teams that debuted after Bradman

(AUS, ENG, SA, WI)
Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Bradman*
Chappell
Kallis
Sobers
Gilchrist+
Marshall
Warne
Steyn
McGrath

(NZ, IND, PAK, SL, ZIM, BAN, IRE, AFG)
Gavaskar
Sehwag
Sangakkara
Tendulkar
Miandad
Flower+
Imran*
Hadlee
Wasim
Waqar
Muralitharan

Maybe too many bowlers in the 2nd side? Maybe Shakib instead of Waqar?

Smith for chapell, also maybe consider replacing warne, if only because 2 of the batsmen in that lineup player for the batting side he averaged 60 against.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Of course you'd want Warne in there. It's like arguing if you'd like Murali in the other side.

Probably a circular debate, but not too many of the batsmen in that side would have faced Murali so bit of an unknown, even if Bradman averaged 99 and Sobers was a beast etc. Unless you're bringing in specific players that have played those...

Whereas a few from that post-Bradman team have faced Warne and smashed him all over the park.

 

[stephen]

Probably a circular debate, but not too many of the batsmen in that side would have faced Murali so bit of an unknown, even if Bradman averaged 99 and Sobers was a beast etc. Unless you're bringing in specific players that have played those...

Whereas a few from that post-Bradman team have faced Warne and smashed him all over the park.

Mate Murali was smashed around the park by lesser batsmen than Hobbs and Bradman. But he was the best spinner from those sides and you always pick your best players. Same argument for Warne.

 

[Coronis]

Eh I’m still reluctant to place Smith in any All Time XI thats not specifically based on recent years until the end/near end of his career.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Mate Murali was smashed around the park by lesser batsmen than Hobbs and Bradman. But he was the best spinner from those sides and you always pick your best players. Same argument for Warne.

Is there another alternative that would be at least somewhat decent?

My line of thinking is if you're picking a 90s England vs 90s South Africa, you probably wouldn't want Atherton facing Donald all over again, regardless of how good he was - with the caveat that there was someone else at least somewhat decent to take over (there obviously isn't for 90s England so you play Atherton and hope for the best).
But in this particular scenario, are there other alternatives? Maybe even dropping spin altogether for instance?

 

[Coronis]

Is there another alternative that would be at least somewhat decent?

My line of thinking is if you're picking a 90s England vs 90s South Africa, you probably wouldn't want Atherton facing Donald all over again, regardless of how good he was - with the caveat that there was someone else at least somewhat decent to take over (there obviously isn't for 90s England so you play Atherton and hope for the best).
But in this particular scenario, are there other alternatives? Maybe even dropping spin altogether for instance?

You’d drop spin rather than have any of Warne, O’Reilly, Grimmett, Benaud, Laker, Verity, Underwood or Tayfield in there?

 

[stephen]

Yeah I'd always play a spinner and Warne was the best spinner from the first group of countries and Murali the best from the second group. I guess someone could argue for Tiger perhaps, given his style was closer to Kumble's and so would provide a different challenge to Warne. But my view on older spinners is that their stats are (relatively) inflated compared to modern spinners due to pitches, roped in fences and bat technology, which is why there were so many older spinners who averaged 25 or less compared to the last 40 years or so.

 

[_00_deathscar]

You’d drop spin rather than have any of Warne, O’Reilly, Grimmett, Benaud, Laker, Verity, Underwood or Tayfield in there?

Can't comment re: some of the older folk, but if I were Sehwag or Sachin on the theoretical second team, I'd be far happier if Warne played than another dozen ATG pacers that the theoretical first team could call upon.
Harder to judge for the other batsmen (i.e. the ones that didn't play vs Warne, or even the ones that did - Sanga and Flower, don't have a huge body of work vs Warne), but I think the overall effect of having another ATG pacer in there outweighs having Warne in that team, particularly facing up to an India-heavy batting lineup.

West Indies got away with a pace battery attack, and even of late, a pretty well coordinated Indian pace attack has won games at home in India more so than the spinners have. No harm in dropping spin if:
- The alternative pacemen are THAT good (and the first team has a ridiculous array to choose from)
- That spinner is Warne vs 3-4 Indian batsmen.

 

[stephen]

I disagree. Even the Windies teams of yore didn't make the best use of the 4th pace bowler. They would have preferred a spinner of Warne's quality every day of the week and twice on Tuesdays.

 

[Red]

Can't comment re: some of the older folk, but if I were Sehwag or Sachin on the theoretical second team, I'd be far happier if Warne played than another dozen ATG pacers that the theoretical first team could call upon.
Harder to judge for the other batsmen (i.e. the ones that didn't play vs Warne, or even the ones that did - Sanga and Flower, don't have a huge body of work vs Warne), but I think the overall effect of having another ATG pacer in there outweighs having Warne in that team, particularly facing up to an India-heavy batting lineup.

West Indies got away with a pace battery attack, and even of late, a pretty well coordinated Indian pace attack has won games at home in India more so than the spinners have. No harm in dropping spin if:
- The alternative pacemen are THAT good (and the first team has a ridiculous array to choose from)
- That spinner is Warne vs 3-4 Indian batsmen.

Even ignoring all the issues that go with not having a spinner and going with four quicks, your belittling of Warne has reached stupid proportions.

If you wanna go down that path, forget picking Sehwag in any ATG match if it'll potentially be played in SA or in Eng or vs Eng players.

 

[trundler]

If you wanna go down that path, forget picking Sehwag in any ATG match if it'll potentially be played in SA or in Eng or vs Eng players.

You joke but I'd rather have Anwar there for this reason or open with Engineer/Mankad

 

[bagapath]

Players the retired before Bradman's debut:

WG Grace *
VT Trumper
Clem Hill
KS Ranjitsinhji
C McCartney
GA Faulkner
J Blackham +
Sid Barnes
Fred Spofforth
Bobby Peel
George Loahmann

Players that debuted after Bradman's retirement and retired before (or didn't play tests after) South Africa's banishment:

Conrad Hunte
Hanif Mohammad
PBH May
Ken Barrington
GA Pollock
GS Sobers
Johnny Waite +
Richie Benaud *
Alan Davidson
Trueman
Wes Hall