*Unofficial* New Zealand Black Caps Thread

[Athlai]

As the fellow biggest Ross Taylor fan, Flem is right.

 

[straw man]

Depth concerns are, as is often the case, opener and spinner. Pretty happy with seam bowling, middle order batting and wicketkeeper depth.

Hard to say what will happen with Blundell opening and what his preference is, but a complete loss of form or exposure in seaming/swinging conditions is well within the realms of possibility. He should be first choice wk after Watling retires if so. But the more difficult question is another opener - make Young or Conway do it? Otherwise I guess it's Henry Cooper as best performing domestic opener.

Spinner position is once again a problem due to a combination of bad luck and bad management. Santner doesn't offer anything with the ball. Ajaz injured, a good Asia tour specialist though. Astle's retirement after bowling surprisingly well against Australia is... frustrating - with the way other chips have fallen he'd be close to my first choice at home now. Sodhi still looks a bad option. Somerville maybe, though Astle outbowled him after his belated callup in Australia and he's 36. No real relief in sight, don't know that best policy on selection i.e. bother with a spinner at all for home tests this season, or not?

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

As the fellow biggest Ross Taylor fan, Flem is right.

I will end you

 

[Bahnz]

I reckon Taylor would be holding on for the test championship final if we make it.

His odds have improved with the ICC's announcement this morning. Win 4 from 4 this summer and NZ will be in the box seat for a trip to Lord's.

 

[MichaelJ2000]

I'm not too concerned about the spin issue tbh. We shouldn't really play spinners at home, if you look at the last 4/5 seasons of home tests, how many hauls have spinners taken (both home and visiting)? I'd suggest sticking with the Ajaz/Sommerville and maybe Ravindra options away from home until Adi Ashok is ready to play. That kid is the best young spinner I've seen (barring maybe Kuldeep Yadav). He should play for the Aces this season. Believe the hype with this kid. He is that good.

 

[Flem274*]

mcconchie and rippon are in new zealand A for a reason. one will bat #8 and bowl 3 overs per day. i don't agree - rippon is a 20/40 player and mcconchie a 25/70 player - but i think the selectors will moneyball.

 

[nzfan]

I can't see either McConchie or Rippon a long term solution for spin bowling. Glad to be proven wrong of course but Cole doesn't put enough behind the ball and Rippon is not even close to being a Sodhi.

 

[Flem274*]

they're not viewed as that, the selectors just have a pet scheme they're entertaining for home games imo. they're scared of getting jumped by poor players of spin or the one day the ball will actually turn at home but also don't want southee at #8 so they're going to pick mcconchie or rippon this summer.

there is no other reason for either to be selected in new zealand A, much less making one skipper. they're not good enough at their core roles to challenge for the test side on merit alone.

 

[nzfan]

For now I think we're fine for spin bowling, if it gets better in a year's time that's great.

Away tours coming up in the next two years

March 2021 Aussie - 3 T20s
Oct 2021 Pakistan - 3 ODIs and 3 T20s
Nov 2021 India - 2 tests and 2 T20s
Oct/Nov 2021 India - ICC T20 WC
June 2022 - England 3 tests
July 2022 - Ireland 1 test and 3 ODIs

The only two series of note where you'll need couple of spinners or three is India and Pakistan. Still about a year away.

 

[Flem274*]

that's disgusting, 9 tests between now and june 2022?

#cancelwhite

edit - oh, away tours. oh well lol still #cancelwhite never rated him anyway

 

[nzfan]

they're not viewed as that, the selectors just have a pet scheme they're entertaining for home games imo. they're scared of getting jumped by poor players of spin or the one day the ball will actually turn at home but also don't want southee at #8 so they're going to pick mcconchie or rippon this summer.

there is no other reason for either to be selected in new zealand A, much less making one skipper. they're not good enough at their core roles to challenge for the test side on merit alone.

Cole has been with NZ A since like two years now. They're doing their best to make him that all rounder but like you said for test cricket he's not the best of the options. He won't be a bad choice for white ball likely.

 

[Immenso]

There is also the qualifying-saffa Dean Foxcroft. Currently marooned.

 

[nzfan]

that's disgusting, 9 tests between now and june 2022?

#cancelwhite

I didn't include home series test matches though. We have 9 home test matches. All in all 14 test matches in two years from now.

 

[Bahnz]

There is also the qualifying-saffa Dean Foxcroft. Currently marooned.

Does anyone know if there's any chance of him getting any Div. 2 FC or list A cricket in SA this summer (and if so whether that would impact on his residency requirements)?

 

[Prince EWS]

Does anyone know if there's any chance of him getting any Div. 2 FC or list A cricket in SA this summer (and if so whether that would impact on his residency requirements)?

His residency requirements are already boned unless the ICC make an exception. I suspect they will but it could be argued that playing in SA might make them less likely to do so.

 

[Immenso]

His residency requirements are already boned unless the ICC make an exception. I suspect they will but it could be argued that playing in SA might make them less likely to do so.

Yeah. That's what I think.
I think ICC will give him some leniency due to exceptional circumstances (as World Rugby already have done with one of their rules). But if he plays SA domestic .... then, nah.

 

[CharlesLara]

I'm not too concerned about the spin issue tbh. We shouldn't really play spinners at home, if you look at the last 4/5 seasons of home tests, how many hauls have spinners taken (both home and visiting)? I'd suggest sticking with the Ajaz/Sommerville and maybe Ravindra options away from home until Adi Ashok is ready to play. That kid is the best young spinner I've seen (barring maybe Kuldeep Yadav). He should play for the Aces this season. Believe the hype with this kid. He is that good.

As someone who was a leg spin "prospect" many moons ago, my leg spin ears to the streets have all said this guy is the one. Although, as this is coming from a mismanaged leg spinner perspective, I'm hoping that he's given the time and development to learn, be consistent and master his craft, unlike the commentators who see a Sodhi googly and think the heavens of spin have opened up.

He's been working with Tarun etc. My only concern with be whether he wants to be a dedicated red ball spinner, or play all formats which will mean he will most likely be LO/T20 and he might cater his skills to that, ala every other leg spinner in this country. I mean I speak to Tarun and his disdain for red ball is quite funny actually, he's at times being sarcastic but I know theres always an element where red ball mastery in leg spin, up there with opening the batting might be the toughest challenge of all, which is why he became a flat whispy leggey relying on straight balls and wronguns.

There needs to be a an understanding of the skills trajectory and comes with leg spin, and most importantly, the mental fortitude of basically having no one trust you. NZ leg spin culture is far superior to what it was 5-10 years ago, so there definitely hope in the process coming through for him.

 

[nzfan]

I hear what Nethula means with white ball in future. We play very less test cricket for a starter. To bowl in test cricket, you need to toss it up, rip the ball, look for the drift and turn. It's a lot of work and truck loads of overs in training to come close to mastering that. Besides you can't bowl **** balls these days, they just disappear. Easier route is to be like Zampa, bowl quicker through the air, have some variations, you don't have to turn heaps and bowl hard length. Far easier to master and don't need to bowl forever to work this out. Besides you still get to play to a full stadium, more followers and way more income. Besides you play way more white ball cricket as well in comparison to test cricket so opportunities are way more.

As soon as you say a promising young leg spinner, I generally wait up to see how they'll go in the long run. If there is growth sprout and the lad grows tall then the loop is going to be gone. Ideal to be shorter in stature to get the flight and dip but tall leg spinners can also bowl all right. In NZ though you have to bowl into the pitch rather than give it the air and try to beat by flight. The surface doesn't grip and skids so a flighted good length ball is dispatched square of the wicket on these decks. If he plays for ND then he has a reasonable chance to develop as that is one deck that surely does aid spin bowling.

What I've seen generally from my helping out leggies and spinners is they start to rely on the flipper or toppies way too much. Besides they will be asked to bowl quicker through the air and soon enough they lose the ability to flight the ball. Really depends on the coaches and captains that can trust spin bowling. Ravindra is a good example of this, saw him bowl in u19s and he had a fantastic flight, beat the batters in the flight and turned the ball from different angles. I've been watching him of late, he never bowls bad but he bowls 2 or 3 over spells as if he's bowling at 180k and needs to rest after 2 overs. If you end up with a captain like we have at Firebirds, kiss the spinner good bye. I can't remember Ravindra bowling more than say 2-3 overs in a spell. I check this whenever any spinner is bowling around the country and I see the trend is quite normal unless it is Ish, Santner, Ajaz or Somerville bowling. Rest of the spinners are just there to make up numbers I feel.

I see that in Kane as well, he's so reluctant to use spinners at home. Canterbury with Cole as captain is managing the spinners very well I see. He still trusts to bowl himself and Theo Von W as wicket taking options. I like that.

Ashok may be very good but really depends on the coaches and the captains to get him better in the long run. In general our spin bowling coaching knowledge is very low to minuscule at grass root levels. Was watching Sheffield on sky and couldn't help noticing how much more smarter those captains are with their spinners. The Under 19 Aussie spinners couple of years ago, Pope was bowling and was bowling quite **** but they kept bringing him back consistently. Over here a spinner goes for a four or couple of fours he's done...

 

[CharlesLara]

I hear what Nethula means with white ball in future. We play very less test cricket for a starter. To bowl in test cricket, you need to toss it up, rip the ball, look for the drift and turn. It's a lot of work and truck loads of overs in training to come close to mastering that. Besides you can't bowl **** balls these days, they just disappear. Easier route is to be like Zampa, bowl quicker through the air, have some variations, you don't have to turn heaps and bowl hard length. Far easier to master and don't need to bowl forever to work this out. Besides you still get to play to a full stadium, more followers and way more income. Besides you play way more white ball cricket as well in comparison to test cricket so opportunities are way more.

As soon as you say a promising young leg spinner, I generally wait up to see how they'll go in the long run. If there is growth sprout and the lad grows tall then the loop is going to be gone. Ideal to be shorter in stature to get the flight and dip but tall leg spinners can also bowl all right. In NZ though you have to bowl into the pitch rather than give it the air and try to beat by flight. The surface doesn't grip and skids so a flighted good length ball is dispatched square of the wicket on these decks. If he plays for ND then he has a reasonable chance to develop as that is one deck that surely does aid spin bowling.

What I've seen generally from my helping out leggies and spinners is they start to rely on the flipper or toppies way too much. Besides they will be asked to bowl quicker through the air and soon enough they lose the ability to flight the ball. Really depends on the coaches and captains that can trust spin bowling. Ravindra is a good example of this, saw him bowl in u19s and he had a fantastic flight, beat the batters in the flight and turned the ball from different angles. I've been watching him of late, he never bowls bad but he bowls 2 or 3 over spells as if he's bowling at 180k and needs to rest after 2 overs. If you end up with a captain like we have at Firebirds, kiss the spinner good bye. I can't remember Ravindra bowling more than say 2-3 overs in a spell. I check this whenever any spinner is bowling around the country and I see the trend is quite normal unless it is Ish, Santner, Ajaz or Somerville bowling. Rest of the spinners are just there to make up numbers I feel.

I see that in Kane as well, he's so reluctant to use spinners at home. Canterbury with Cole as captain is managing the spinners very well I see. He still trusts to bowl himself and Theo Von W as wicket taking options. I like that.

Ashok may be very good but really depends on the coaches and the captains to get him better in the long run. In general our spin bowling coaching knowledge is very low to minuscule at grass root levels. Was watching Sheffield on sky and couldn't help noticing how much more smarter those captains are with their spinners. The Under 19 Aussie spinners couple of years ago, Pope was bowling and was bowling quite **** but they kept bringing him back consistently. Over here a spinner goes for a four or couple of fours he's done...

Exactly my fear. You described it to a t.

This happened to me, you basically have to reset and if you are not aware of it like most of us, you "THINK" you are doing the same thing but the mechanics timing and everything else is gone and before you realise it you've tweaked everything so you're an unrecognisable version of what initially made you good. You completely lose the feel and your left with trying to be the old you with a completely unrepeatable action for consistency. You can see it with Ish. It's like there no real "drop" on the ball anymore.

Confidence is huge, we just don't really know how to handle attacking spinners and its just a cultural thing. Its holding pattern ****, also you need to be a side with runs on the board too.

 

[nzfan]

We will struggle to produce test quality spinners. The environment, weather, decks, the coaching and all concerning spin is just not there. You need an absolute outlier of a player to defy this. I can't see this coming soon unless there is a collective effort to seriously look into channeling efforts to go all out to increase the spin bowling depth. It's way better than before but not close to being world class set up for producing good quality spinners as yet.