Rank These 21st Century Pacers

[ankitj]

Yeah but the ball to Cook was fast bowling porn equivalent of Angela and Manuel

*Enters names in Google*

 

[Line and Length]

No, they have a cognitive deficit. It doesn't have to be the same cognitive deficit in all of them, but they all have one. Particularly when it comes to cricket.

Words fail me.

 

[trundler]

Words fail me.

That one's called dyslexia I believe

 

[vcs]

*Enters names in Google*

Pro Tip : Open Link in New Private Window

 

[vcs]

That one's called dyslexia I believe

Excellent

 

[Teja.]

1. Dale Steyn
2. James Anderson
3. Vernon Philander
4. Pat Cummins
5. Mitchell Johnson
6. Mohammad Asif
7. Kagiso Rabada
8. Ryan Harris
9. Neil Wagner
10. Jasprit Bumrah
11. Stuart Broad
12. Shane Bond

Haha, interesting to see the skill absolutism line set by you which Anderson ****ing gallops over but makes Broad worse than a bloke who has played 14 tests.

 

[Prince EWS]

Haha, interesting to see the skill absolutism line set by you which Anderson ****ing gallops over but makes Broad worse than a bloke who has played 14 tests.

I mainly just used my algorithm thing because I'm keener to give it a vote in these cumulative CW exercises than my own inadequate memory and personal biases. I'd come up with a bit of a different list on my own, perhaps ironically more longevity-focused in some instances than my algorithm which has mostly been criticised for longevity-focusing.

I rated Harris's stint in the team so highly that I think in many cases it'd probably be more valuable than Broad playing a Broad sized-career. It'd depend on the team though - for a bad team Broad would probably be more valuable as you'd be getting improvement for such a long period; for a good team you'd just wait until Harris was good to use him and maybe not actually use Broad at all. So that's a tough one.

You were talking abot Bumrah though, which.. yeah.

 

[Daemon]

Averaged under 15 in Asia as a quick.

In 2 Tests

Against SL

One of which was on a pitch reported for uneven bounce

Even Watson averaged 20 with the ball in that series

Who?s next?

 

[Line and Length]

That one's called dyslexia I believe

I've found my voice.

 

[ankitj]

Yeah, it's not that he had a short career because the selectors were dumb or Australia had heaps of depth. If he had a normal length career his average would be significantly higher given the fact that he was bowling pies as a grade cricket allrounder for a decade or so.

Alternatively we could rate Ishant Sharma by a Ryan Harris-sized career and say he was awesome because if he was Australian he'd have just played grade cricket in Adelaide when he was a **** ****, and include him on the list with his average of 20 or whatever it has been lately.

Ishant Sharma since start of 2016 (29 tests, about same as Harris)

Ishant Sharma	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
Total	29	56	788.3	172	2203	96	5/22	9/78	22.94	2.79	49.2	4	0
in Australia	3	6	103	21	262	11	4/41	5/86	23.81	2.54	56.1	0	0
in England	5	9	151	36	437	18	5/51	6/97	24.27	2.89	50.3	1	0
in India	12	24	308.3	67	886	35	5/22	9/78	25.31	2.87	52.8	1	0
in New Zealand	1	2	23.2	6	76	5	5/68	5/76	15.20	3.25	28.0	1	0
in South Africa	2	4	69	12	150	8	3/46	5/86	18.75	2.17	51.7	0	0
in West Indies	6	11	133.4	30	392	19	5/43	8/74	20.63	2.93	42.2	1	0
home	12	24	308.3	67	886	35	5/22	9/78	25.31	2.87	52.8	1	0
away	17	32	480	105	1317	61	5/43	8/74	21.59	2.74	47.2	3	0

 

[trundler]

In 2 Tests

Against SL

One of which was on a pitch reported for uneven bounce

Even Watson averaged 20 with the ball in that series

Who?s next?

2 tests against WI too though.

I know this is banter but I don't see the point of stats vs x when we're talking about a series or 2. I don't care how much Ashwin averaged against England in 2018. He was a ****ing disappointment and everyone thought as much.

 

[Teja.]

1. Dale Steyn
2. Vernon Philander
3. James Anderson
4. Kagiso Rabada
5. Mitchell Johnson
6. Stuart Broad
7. Pat Cummins
8. Mohd Asif
9. Ryan Harris
10. Neil Wagner
11. Jasprit Bumrah
12. Shane Bond

 

[ankitj]

2 tests against WI too though.

I know this is banter but I don't see the point of stats vs x when we're talking about a series or 2. I don't care how much Ashwin averaged against England in 2018. He was a ****ing disappointment and everyone thought as much.

In only one innings mainly AFAIR.

 

[Daemon]

2 tests against WI too though.

I know this is banter but I don't see the point of stats vs x when we're talking about a series or 2. I don't care how much Ashwin averaged against England in 2018. He was a ****ing disappointment and everyone thought as much.

Not sure why you're using the past tense there

 

[trundler]

Cummins behind Broad is going too much the other way imo. Philander over Jimmy seems to be the popular choice and that seems interesting to me. Philander looked totally innocuous in Asia (going by memory) but was better in SA and Aus. Jimmy contributed massively to a series win in India and did great on that UAE tour. Oh and he rarely gets mysteriously injured on away tours.

 

[Teja.]

Yeah, it's not that he had a short career because the selectors were dumb or Australia had heaps of depth. If he had a normal length career his average would be significantly higher given the fact that he was bowling pies as a grade cricket allrounder for a decade or so.

Alternatively we could rate Ishant Sharma by a Ryan Harris-sized career and say he was awesome because if he was Australian he'd have just played grade cricket in Adelaide when he was a **** ****, and include him on the list with his average of 20 or whatever it has been lately.

Wonder if you remember the Broad v Ishant meme thread just preceding the 2011 series. The sun is rising for the Ishant defenders after a decade and Ishant probably will be better in the forever stakes once both careers are done lol. Who would?ve thought? Definitely not me in 2011.

 

[Teja.]

Re: Broad v Cummins, for the order, I was not taking into account future potential and rating the careers as snapshots at this point of time. I fully expect Cummins to have a far better career and think he is a better quality bowler than Broad ever has been obv.

Cribb made a similar point earlier but I think a player of the quality of Cummins would be more valuable for teams which already have an endless supply of fast bowlers who can average 30 or thereabouts - like SEA but a bowler like Broad with an average range of 28-32 at 3-3.5 wpm over 100+ test matches in 13 ****ing years who is inconsistent but can bowl match winning spells on his own (which is actually better than being consistent for weaker sides) would be more valuable for the average test match side (or at least more sides than otherwise) than a brilliant 30 match career. I think the value of bowlers who can average 28 or thereabouts over 100+ tests is often underrated tbh.

Rabada, Johnson, Broad and Cummins are pretty close for me though.

 

[harsh.ag]

1. Steyn
2. Asif
3. Cummins
4. Anderson
5. Bumrah
6. Philander
7. Broad
8. Harris
9. Rabada
10. Johnson

Anderson too high in some ways but he is Harris + a bad career, which is better than Harris. Philander a bit low but I rate Bumrah's versatility higher and am keeping expected future performance as a variable, which is how Cummins ends up at #3. Rabada a touch low but he's been a bit disappointing and I don't much like SA's trajectory. Johnson's peak gets him above Bond. Barely. Harris was the toughest to rank for me and I missed some of his tests, so that's just bias maybe.

 

[morgieb]

The obvious Ryan Harris critique is that he was on the verge of being dropped by SA in 2007 and only decided to git gud and crack the test team when he was around 30 in 09-10 even though he was playing FC cricket for a decade prior. That on top of the injuries restricting the tests he did play in that small 30-35 age window made the value he added pretty limited even though he was very high quality when he did play.

I?d rate a hypothetical pickyourname Australian pacer who cracked the test side at 24 and gave 10 years of service in rotation averaging 28 with the ball without as many injuries over Ryan Harris averaging 24 playing 27 tests in a 5 year period while being injured half the time. In terms of utility/value if not quality at least.

If anything the fact that he was so terrible for so long makes him even more remarkable. Agree that it probably gives him a hit in a thing like this.

 

[honestbharani]

Given the list contains both players who have had full, or almost full careers, and those who are still in the middle or even some that are just starting out, it can never really be an apples to apples thing. Factoring longevity as the main thing is unfair to guys who have just started out, factoring in skills alone makes it completely and utterly subjective and therefore, not really worth arguing, and every other criteria has some or the other drawback.

I have simply rated them by how good I think they are as fast bowlers. Some may achieve or sustain that greatness, some may fall behind. But if I am the batsman and you are giving me the choice of these 12 bowlers, that is the inverse of the order of preference I would give out.

You guys are overcomplicating by arguing things like Cummins Vs Broad. Harris Vs Broad, Philander Vs Anderson are far better arguments.


PS: Asif is the only one I am genuinely not rating here mainly because of his match fixing stuff. I don't want to normalize those careers.