How G is an ATG?

[AndrewB]

I expect this has been discussed/decided before, but searching the forum for "ATG" doesn't work...

When people refer to someone as an ATG, what level does this mean?

So, for example, if you say "X is an ATG Test opener", does that mean you think X is in the all-time top... 5/10/20/50 Test openers?

 

[Red]

I think ATG is a CW thing.

I made up my own metric that I think works. If a player from any nation would force their way into the NZ all time XI, they're an ATG

 

[AndrewB]

ATG was used in the Usenet cricket newsgroups back when I read those.

 

[ataraxia]

If a player from any nation would force their way into the NZ all time XI, they're an ATG

Graeme Swann an ATG?

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

Moderate downgrade

 

[Daemon]

No real rule but an easy way is to see if they have a reasonable case for making their country's ATG XI. This obviously doesn't work in some cases, e.g. being an Indian pacer, NZ bowler, Bangladeshi etc.

 

[Daemon]

I think ATG is a CW thing.

I made up my own metric that I think works. If a player from any nation would force their way into the NZ all time XI, they're an ATG

NZ ATG XI is pretty easy to crack for bowlers no?

 

[ataraxia]

NZ ATG XI is pretty easy to crack for bowlers no?

For spinners definitely, but pacers have to be better than Bond/Cowie to get in. I think it's fair to consider them ATGs.

 

[honestbharani]

I would say the top 15-20 or so of that discipline will be ATGs.

 

[trundler]

Anyone who has been the best in the world at what they do with an otherwise fulfilling career to back it up.

 

[Line and Length]

Given that we talk about ATGs in the categories of openers, middle order bats, all-rounders, 'keepers. spinners and pace bowlers we would be calling a lot of players ATGs if we had, say, 20 in each category. We have to accept that teams include certain categories (middle order bats and pace bowlers) more than others thus we might be talking about more ATG fast bowlers than ATG 'keepers or spinners.

 

[honestbharani]

Yeah I did not word it right, early morning blues.. I mean it more like what L&L says. It depends on the discipline obviously.

 

[Red]

Graeme Swann an ATG?

Yeh, Vettori might be the weak link in there. But still, gotta be someone who can get past a guy with 100+ tests and almost 400 test wickets (who was also a really good bat).

NZ ATG XI is pretty easy to crack for bowlers no?

I guess the XI might be:

Turner
Dempster
Williamson
Crowe
Taylor
Cairns
McCullum
Vettori
Hadlee
Bond
Cowie

I reckon anyone who can get past Hadlee, Bond and Cowie is a decent shout as an ATG

 

[Victor Ian]

ATG changes with time as well which muddies the waters too. Dean Jones was easily ATG until time diminshed his greatness. I dont mean that in terms of him fading from memory, rather, i mean that in terms of time allowing more once in a generation players to lock down spots.
One opener is locked away for me in Tendulkar. Maybe discuss another 5 players as his partner. Viv and kohli have mid order locked down. Maybe only a handfull can crack the other spots. Bevan, dhoni and maybe a couple others take the finisher role.
Garner and starc eat two of the pace spots. Murali gets the spinner role. So about 7 spots are taken by very very special players with very little debate. Id guess lists of more than 25 all time greats are not really ATG even though the players may have been awesome in their time.

 

[Starfighter]

Well they're G, in comparison to players from teams like Zimbabwe, who are a bit more E.

 

[stephen]

I personally think an ATG is a player who would make any side in the world for the majority of their career.

 

[trundler]

It becomes hard to maintain a consistent definition across eras. For me that's broadly before and after 1970. Most of CW would agree with me when I say that guys like Yousuf, Clarke and KP were fine performers but distinctly a level below the very best. In the same vein somebody like May Dexter were world class but certainly behind Sobers and Barrington. Yet they're still regarded as greats of the game. Maybe it is because we're more aware of the limitations of modern players.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

An ATG is a player who transcends the game. Is regarded as a white dwarf like Rigel or a red giant like Betelgeuse.

 

[JOJOXI]

Is Jimmy Anderson an ATG?

 

[JOJOXI]

Not many better when it is swinging, since the start of 2010 averages 24.10 yes that takes away his poor start to his career but if a player had 436 wickets @ 24.1 he'd be seen very highly - it 'cherry picks' his best decade but we are speaking of a player averaging 24.1 during a 10 year spell, not a year or two. In that 10 year spell averages over 26.41 in only 2 countries (Australia - 30.34 and New Zealand - 29.09)

Having said all of that if you compare him to say Malcolm Marshall or Dale Steyn as just 2 examples I put both of them above Anderson without a 2nd thought. Also for those at the top of the wicket taking they've presumably had a long career as well so only fair to use a peak 10 year average so any comparison isn't skewed.

Likewise how about Courtney Walsh - 24.44 average - immense success in India and Pakistan if he was a decade or so earlier might he have had a few less wickets in an elite pace attack but have those wickets at a better average - it must be harder to withstand a bowler if you know you've got 4 fearsome fast bowlers to encounter